New Coach Same As The Old Coach
by Joe Dunman on May 22, 2008 2:25 PM MDT
in NHL News
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PrintPlease excuse my absence during the surprise announcement that Avalanche assistant coach (and former head coach) Tony Granato will be taking the reigns left to him by Joel Quenneville next season. Sometimes I actually have to do work at my job.
Anyway, it's probably not worth saying how disappointed I am, and not because I dislike Tony Granato---I don't---but because we all know the Avalanche needs a new direction from the top down. Recycling old coaches (and clinging to an old era) is probably not the best strategy for a team that could be seeing the departure of long-time captain Joe Sakic (this summer or next), not to mention Peter Forsberg and Adam Foote (eventually). Whether they like it or not, the Avalanche front office is going to have to start thinking toward the future.
Now, as for the selection of Granato, it's not really a shocker, honestly. Pierre Lacroix may not be the GM anymore, but he's still pulling the strings and you have to know that he played a major role in this selection. Granato is Lacroix's boy. And let's be honest, Granato is not incompetent. He's been a solid assistant coach under the right head coach. He did well under Bob Hartley. He did well with the power play before Q's obsession with being wrong and bull-headed kicked in this past season.
And Granato has some solid numbers as a former head coach:
With Granato as head coach, the Avalanche compiled a record of 72-33-17-11, giving him the top coaching mark in franchise history based on points percentage (.647). Granato owns a .605 career winning percentage as an NHL head coach (72-44-17), the second highest in franchise history. Among active NHL coaches, Granato ranks fifth in career winning percentage behind Bruce Boudreau (.664), Dave Tippett (.632), Randy Carlyle (.630) and Mike Babcock (.621).
But, and this is the big BUT, Granato choked (twice) in the offseason with some really solid lineups. He lost in the playoffs with a team that had Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Tanguay, Roy and Blake---and they were all healthy, and they had all won a Cup together before. How is that possible? Was it just because Bourque had retired? I doubt it.
Tony Granato's been in the Avs system for a long time. He's put in his time, and somebody decided that he was owed the head job (again). It didn't go so well the last time (overall), but he's older, has more experience and is just hangin' out with nothing else to do.
So Granato, at least for 2008-09, will be the head coach of the Avalanche. I guess we'll survive. I mean, it could be Quenneville again.
Honestly, I think the really interesting aspects of this story are 1) the Denver media had NO IDEA this was going to happen, and 2) the Avs will have to hire a new assistant coach to replace Granato. Kevin Dineen maybe? The offensive assistant coach is the main power play guy, usually, so there's at least a small chance that the PP will improve next year.
I have to say, though, that if they had to pick a Granato to coach the team, I would have preferred Cammi .
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Yeah, this sucks. We needed a change. But oh well, we’ll see how it pans out. I think keeping our players or acquiring new ones is more important than looking at what coach we get.
by Mike the Avs Fan on May 22, 2008 2:33 PM MDT reply actions
I think that’s why I’m not in panic mode. Francois Giguere has done a pretty good job building a decent lineup, and I trust his judgment so far. I think, if the team can avoid injuries and some key guys can return (Finger, Foote, Sakic, Sauer, Liles), the Avs will be okay. Granato will have some strong players to work with, and hopefully can hire some decent trainers.
Go Avs! Let's get some goals!
by Joe Dunman on May 22, 2008 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is exactly why I am in panic mode
We have already seen what Tony can do with an outstanding lineup. Crash and burn in the playoffs, twice. With a much better lineup than whatever we’re going to end up with next year.
This is just crap. I pretty much agree with jibble’s profanity laced tirade post. I could have lived much more happily with almost anyone else. There are at least a dozen head coaches in the NHL who will absolutely coach circles around Granato. I’m not looking forward to going Oh-fer versus the Wings for the next however many years. Crapity crap crap crap. One of the worst wtf moves in franchise history, imo.
by Bob in Boulder on May 22, 2008 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Speaking of WTF moves in franchise history, I trust this news today will be followed by the announcement of a 10-year, $150 million contract for Jose Theodore.
Go Avs! Let's get some goals!
Yeah, I would definitely have a heart attack if that happened. Brrrrrr, scares me just thinking about it…
by Mike the Avs Fan on May 22, 2008 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes, good point. Granato has had some world-class rosters to work with and done nothing with them (like Kariya/Selanne, as I mentioned in Mike’s post while Joe was gone).
by Mike the Avs Fan on May 22, 2008 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Outstanding lineup? Really?
I guess if you repeat something often enough, many people will think it’s true. The truth is that the Avs’ lineup in Granato’s 2 seasons weren’t outstanding, not by a long shot.
Here’s the lineup for the 1st year, where an injured Joe Sakic only scored 58 points and the 5th leading scorer was Steve Reinprecht and the 8th leading scorer was Greg DeVries. Chris Drury had already been traded by this point. Scott Parker played 43 games for this “loaded” team. Bryan Muir and DJ Smith combined for 66. Jeff Shantz played 74.
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0006902003.html
Here’s the lineup for the 2nd year, where the Kariya/Selanne experiment failed miserably, thanks mostly to Kariya’s overall douchebaggery. Check out the ESPN series on the Avs that year, and watch Kariya act like a clueless fool pretty much the entire time. Watch Jim Cummins ride him mercilessly and watch Kariya respond with stupid giggles. He came across as borderline retarded in that show, and now we can tell it was just foreshadowing his future awesome career of playing on 3 teams in 4 seasons. Teemu, as we found out later, just needed time to heal. Forsberg only played 39 games in the regular season. The only guy with guts was Derek Morris, the first one to Steve Moore’s aid in Vancouver, and his reward was to get traded later that year for Chris Fucking Gratton and Ossi Fucking Vaananen. Jim Cummins played 55 games for that “loaded” team, and Peter Worrell played 49. Travis Brigley played 36. Probably, for me, the most disappointing Avs team ever, and it’s a minor miracle that Granato was able to guide that dysfunctional crew to the 2nd round of the playoffs. (Oh, by the way, David Aebischer was the starting goalie most of that year.)
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0006902004.html
I appreciate the passion in these comments, really, but try to be somewhat accuruate in your recollection. Maybe you should check your memory before talking about how “loaded” those 2 teams were.
Ah, one last thing. Let’s all be honest and admit we have no fucking idea what makes a great coach, an average coach, or a terrible coach. How many of you were happy at Quenneville’s hiring? (I was.) Anybody have any idea why Ken Hitchcock didn’t work in Philly after being great with Dallas? Why was Andy Murray lauded for the work in LA but not in St. Louis? How could John Tortorella go from a Stanley Cup to worst in the league? Claude Julien underachieves in NJ but overachieves in Boston. And wasn’t Michel Therien on the verge of getting fired with Pittsburgh?
by Dan Winkler on May 22, 2008 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You bring up some good points about those teams, Dan. However, I swear I thought NepThomas wrote that till I got to the end.
How many of you were happy at Quenneville’s hiring?
I was underwhelmed when Q was hired. He hadn’t delivered on anything in St. Louis and I figured he got the job only because there weren’t a ton of great options who were familiar with the organization or players. Remember, there wasn’t a steady minor league affiliate at the time, so there wasn’t a coach ‘in the system.’ Q had a history with PL and wouldn’t be lambasted by the always incompetent local media because he had a decent pedigree at the NHL level. After going the ‘unknown’ route with Hartley, an actual name was needed at the time. I thought he underachieved in STL and wasn’t surprised in the least with the Q Era in Colorado.
Hitch didn’t work in Philly because the team sucked. Tons of vets cashing checks IMO. Murrey had success in the Pacific with a hodge-podge team because outside of Dallas the rest of the division was pretty weak (outside of one or two decent Duck teams). Torts has been hamstrung by horrible mis-management. No blue-chip D-men and no #1 goalie = horrible outcome. The math isn’t that hard. As history has shown, the only way anybody has success in NJ is to be fired. And Therien had to bide his time in WB-Scranton while the Pens fielded some mediocre teams and dealt with Mario’s legacy before they hit the jackpot for, like, 4 years in a row in the draft. Now he’s reaping the whirlwind. Also, just because the Pitts media says he was on the chopping block, doesn’t make it so.
Exactly
So the answer is that it’s more about players than coaching…absolutely correct. Coaches and managers matter the most in high school. Then college. But not nearly as much in the pros, unless you’re on the Ray Handley end or the Earl Weaver end. I’d say 98 percent of all coaches fall somewhere in between, which is why Belichek, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Joe Gibbs, Shanahan, Bob Hartley, and too many more to mention go/went from hero to schmuck on a regular basis. Hiring Granato’s not gonna matter too much unless he’s like Handley (which I doubt) or Weaver (which I also doubt). What’s gonna matter is if the organization drafts better and spends its money better in the free agent market.
by Dan Winkler on May 22, 2008 8:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Why do you have to take a shot at me like that?
I mean, say what you want about me, but his argument was emotional, illogical and generally mis-informed. And I would NEVER fellate Granato like he did.
This was an awful, awful signing. I’ve lost all confidence in our idiot GM. This was an absolute abortion. Tin Dome Tony is a useless pile of garbage.
Now now, Giguere is a good GM. Maybe Lacroix was behind this…
by Mike the Avs Fan on May 22, 2008 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions
There is absolutely zero logic....
....to the idea that Pierre Lacroix had anything to do with this signing. FG has a long list of un-imaginitive and downright boneheaded moves. To argue that just because PL hired Granato the first time that somehow that means he made this move is ridiculous.
Hell, Dater even squashed this one with his quote from Giguere.
But think what you want. I don’t care. It’s not my problem anymore. Granato is your turd to polish, not mine.
My bad
it wasn’t meant as a shot. His opening line sounded like something I thought I’d read from you in the past. The tone of the comment seemed familiar also.
Honestly, (really) no insult intended to either party, just an observation.
I think the comparison was valid in that Dan took a contrary, confrontational tone and Thomas is known for doing so. It was a comparison of tone, not an insult due to content of argument.
I think most of us caught that.
Go Avs! Let's get some goals!
Dan, you ignorant slut
OK, thanks for bringing your “facts” and “data” into the mix here, where emotions are certainly running high after this head scratcher. But why slant your “facts” and “data” the way you have? Doesn’t almost every team have their share of stiffs run through the lineup every year? Sure, the Drury trade was brutal, and the Morris trade (plus Ballard, btw, PL lover) for absolute shit absolutely compounded it. And I had forgotten all about the abortion that was Bates Battaglia for Vrbata, which luckily was made a little better when we obtained Kono for BB, until his career was ended prematurely. However, you conveniently failed to mention that the Avs had the absolute best forward line in the game in 2002-2003, including the best player in the game (Hart trophy winning Forsberg), top goal scorer (Hejduk) and Tanguay. Plus Sakic. Plus Rhino was a decent 2nd line forward. Plus a pretty damn solid back end including Foote, Blake, Devo, and Morris. Plus some pretty solid checking forwards like Messier, Hahl, and Hinote. Oh yeah, and they had this guy named Roy in net.
And the loaded up experiment with Selanne and Kariya was supposed to be even better. Do you deny being upset when they lost to Minnesota in the first round in 2003 or then failed to be the dynamo everyone expected them to be in 2004? Do you remember thinking how horribly outclassed Granato was in both of those playoff seasons? Do you think it made any sense whatsoever to hire Granato the first time around when he had a total of 31 games coaching experience, period, at any level, as an assistant under Hartley prior to Hartley’s firing?
I was thrilled when they signed Quennville. As it turned out, I was wrong. Hopefully I am now too, but this hiring is the absolute worst that could have been made, imo.
by Bob in Boulder on May 22, 2008 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Ha
See, the subject lines are good for something.
I think we should always call each other (everyone) an “ignorant slut” when we disagree.
Go Avs! Let's get some goals!
You’re mostly talking about the regular season lineups, we’re mostly talking about the failures in the playoffs. All the top players were healthy and accounted for both years, with the exception of Paul Kariya who only played 1 playoff game in 03-04.
You can’t argue that a team with Tanguay, Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, Foote, Selanne, and Hejduk healthy and in the lineup shouldn’t have gone farther than they did in those playoffs. Aebischer or no Aebischer (2.08 GAA, .922 in the playoffs – pretty good), the team should not have bowed out as early as they did.
Go Avs! Let's get some goals!
Correction, joe you ignorant slut
Tanguay and Selanne never played in the playoffs together. Tanguay had been traded by then. The avs had Konawalchk (and Chris Gratton) by then though.
2003 Playoff roster
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
by Jibblescribbits on May 22, 2008 5:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Nope
You’re the ignorant slut. Tanguay wasn’t traded until 06-07. He didn’t play in the game you linked because he was injured. He only played 8 playoff games that season.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/COL/2004.html
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/tangual01.html
Go Avs! Let's get some goals!
My bad
finding “Playoff Rosters” is rather difficult.
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
by Jibblescribbits on May 23, 2008 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Only because
I’m an ignorant slut
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
by Jibblescribbits on May 23, 2008 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Tornado
There is going to be a Tornado in OK sometime soon.
Prepare the Eulogy for Mike Joe!
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
by Jibblescribbits on May 23, 2008 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Disagree
First i don’t think anyone really disagrees that the regular seasons weren’t terrible. So using Shantz, Muir and DJ smith aren’t the best of arguments. Where the Avs really blew it was the playoffs (But i’ll counter your Sakic was hurt with Forsberg’s Hart season)
That 02-03 team was not bad, and should have gone deep in the playoffs. DeVries has since proved he’s a good defenseman. And that 02-03 team featured a top-4 defense of Morris, DeVries, Foote and Blake, with Skoula and Marchment in the 5 and 6 spot. Not shabby at all. Forsberg was a Hart player, Sakic was healthy for the playoffs, Roy was Roy, They still had Tanguay and a solid checking line of Reinprecht, Keene and Hinote. I’ll admit looking at it it’s not as strong as I remember but it was more talented than the Wild’s.
the 03-04 team WAS loaded. Even without Roy. Defense Foote, Blake, Boughner, Skrastins (pre slow-footed) with Liles and Vaananan as 5 and 6. On offense not only did they have Sakic, Forsberg, Hejduk, Selanne (albeit hurt) Kariya, but they also had Konawalchuk. And Aebby wasn’t bad that season by any stretch.
So yeah i think it’s fair to say he underacheived with those teams.
On offense they had
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
by Jibblescribbits on May 22, 2008 5:20 PM MDT reply actions
Wow, this team must have sucked
82 games from Martin Skoula, 73 from Dave Reid, 69 for Scott Parker, 46 for Nolan Pratt, 41 for Chris Dingman the 2001 Colorado Avalanche.
I Say
WTF? Really, WTF. I realize TG has the winningest record of any coach. I also remember the Avs playing a more offensive or puck possession style but honestly, I just chalked that up to TG continuing Hartley’s style. The whole retread thing really gets me. What’s worse is that any “improvements” may fit the mold of Q’s uh style… Wait, did he have a style? Oh yeah, it was called SUCK. At least it seems TG won’t except kickbacks to throw a playoff series against the Wings.
Don't Go, Joe!
aren’t we all just a bunch of ignorant sluts…
I have to admit I was never sold on the hiring of Q. I though he was miserable in St. Louis and figured he wouldn’t do much better here. In that case I guess I was right.
As for this hiring…I’m not jumping off a bridge. I wasn’t upset with the job Granato did before. A lot of people point out the team with Selanne and Kariya, but I seem to remember that Kariya hardly played and Selanne was hibernating. I for one was happy when Granato moved Selanne down to 3rd/4th line because he wasn’t playing well. Just the opposite of Q who seemed to move guys down or bench them when they were performing well and continued to put the guys who had disappeared on the top lines.
Many also want to hack Granato for this season power play…well he had pretty good power play units before as an assistant and then as a head coach, so what was different this year? Could it be the Q had something to do with it?
Hopefully what Granato has “learned” from Q is what not to try. I know one thing though, we can most likely look forward to having a “starting” goalie very early next season…probably by the time the pre-season is over.
"The difference between a successful person and others,
is not a lack of strength,not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will."
-Vince Lombardi-
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