But What About The Players?
by Joe Dunman on May 7, 2008 9:15 AM MDT
in NHL News
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PrintWhile I've been focused this week on the Avalanche coaching situation, Draft Dodger over at In The Cheap Seats has been analyzing the free agency concerns facing each of the three player positions. What do the Avs do if Jose Theodore takes off? What about the limitations of Jeff Finger and Kurt Sauer? Should Colorado go after Brian Rolston? All these questions and more are pondered:
Worth noting in the comments section of the post on forwards is the brief discussion about possible captaincy replacements for Joe Sakic should he retire this summer (god help us all). My vote: a year (of mourning) with three alternates and no captain, and then Adam Foote if he's still around in 2009-10.
UPDATE: And please, before you waste your time trying to argue about whether or not Joe Sakic is a good leader (seriously, Thomas, please), remember that none of us has ever been in the locker room, on the team, to experience his impact as a captain. If you're not convinced by the fact that he's been a team captain for more than a decade and has never had a negative thing said about his leadership ability by anyone who has played with him (Mark Messier can't say that), then nothing will convince you. But please, don't argue about it. It's wearing me out.
I will close the comments off completely because the Net Nanny has a short leash.
UPDATE 2: Comments closed. Don't try to take the argument to other posts, either.
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Captains
I am a big fan of the co-captains idea. Joey took shared C duty back in the day himself. Work Stastny in the same way. Footer would get my nod over Smyth and that is certainly no knock on Smitty.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on May 7, 2008 9:39 AM MDT reply actions
Three alternates
Three alternates and no captain will give us another year of what we've had for the last several - no leader. I almost think having Sakic back would be better than having no captain at all.
I think Foote is the logical choice for captain, and maybe he'd finally light the fire that these lazy schmucks have needed for so long. Hard to step up and take over a locker room when everyone looks to see Sakic's reaction before they listen to you.
Then again, Foote was captain in Columbus and not a lot was accomplished there. So maybe we need to look in a different direction completely.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 9:46 AM MDT reply actions
Re: Three alternates
I was hoping you'd somehow work in the "Sakic is a lousy leader" meme.
Anyway, I would hardly blame the failures of the Blue Jackets on Adam Foote. The fact that they've pretty much relied on poor Rick Nash to drive their entire offense for so long is not the fault of one veteran d-man.
Right, but...
...there's a difference between not producing and not putting in any effort.
And yes, Sakic is an awful leader. But we've already gone through that, as you may remember.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Re: Right, but...
You forgot notwithstanding
more playoff gw OT goals than anyone in NHL history. Not that that would represent leading by example or anything.
He's not fire and brimstone, but if anyone in that lockerroom doesn't respect Joe Sakic, it's their problem, not his. Coach Q, on the other hand ....
by Bob in Boulder on May 7, 2008 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah, exactly
Joey isn't the most vocal leader by all appearances (do we REALLY know what he's like in the locker room behind closed doors? no!), but there's different kinds of leaders. It's like saying that Lincoln was a bad leader because he didn't fight on the front lines and lead the troops directly. Only fools think one size fits all in the leadership category.
To say he's not a good leader despite virtually every other person that DOES know what he's like as a leader's testimony that he is a great leader and captain -- including teammates -- is probably one of the silliest things I've ever heard.
A great Captain
Still gets outranked by the Coach. We all know what that meant for the Avs.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on May 7, 2008 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Appeal to authority
Appeal to authority and appeal to popular opinion. Both logical fallacies.
I don't care if the players say he's a great leader. All the players on this current team can say he's a great leader all they want, the simple fact is that we saw very little effort from this team this year. That's on Idiot and it's on Sakic.
But please, get it out of your system now. Throw out the exact same arguments we already went through months ago. That will accomplish soooo freaking much.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Fallacy
Did you really just start talking about logical fallacies. I mean did I read that right? You, accusing of logical fallacies. My head might assplode at any minute if you did.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on May 7, 2008 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions
Did you...
...plan to refute the point, or just throw insults?
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Lead by example
Leading by example only works when you have veteran players who are willing to be led by example. Worked great for the Wings. Doesn't work for the Avs.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Cups and Smythes...
...aren't leadership.
Please, as if I have never heard that argument.
Producing isn't leadership.
Being an MVP isn't leadership.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Wait a tick.
Leading a team to the Cup and loads of playoff success isn't leadership?
You must have some inside source or something to know what these qualities are that Sakic does not posses, aside from mouthing off all the time. Everything I have ever read says Joey is the leader. Not just sports reporters say this. I see quotes from guys saying they don't want Joe to have to come light a fire in them. Quotes about how steady he is.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on May 7, 2008 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Wow, yeah...
...quotes from other players about their captain. Yeah, because players throw their captain under the bus ALL THE FREAKING TIME.
Of course they don't want Sakic to have to come light a fire under them - because if they are in that situation, they are screwed because Sakic doesn't light fires under anyone.
Sakic didn't lead the team to a Cup. He was a captain on two Cup teams, yes, but both Cup teams had to acquire the fire-y captain (or captains) of another team(s) along the way to get it done.
As for the playoff success, let's just say I'd love to see what this team would have done over the years with a Messier-type captain instead of Joe "Nah, it's okay, maybe next year" Sakic.
And stating my opinion isn't mouthing off, bud.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
*head assplodes*
No where in my entire post did I reference you. Why you would put yourself as a victim of mouthing off confuses me. It seems to me you want a leader who yells all the time at his team and that is the quality you want to see in Joe. Mouthing off. Q does it to great success just like Ron Wilson. Both Multiple cups winning coaches!
By the way. The quote about not wanting Joey after him came from a former Avalanche player that I read a few years ago. No reason to protect your captain after you leave.
Messier captained the Rangers to how many FAILED TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS seasons with astronomical payrolls? Mark Messier demanded that the #11 the team unofficially retired in honour of Wayne Maki be given to him in Vancouver. Joe clearly has nothing on this guy. Sigh.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on May 7, 2008 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Messier
Messier has six Cup rings, his number retired by two (with a third likely to be added) teams, two Harts, a Smythe, two Pearsons, and was the only player in NHL history to captain two different Stanley Cup winning teams. Probably the most respected player in Canucks history, Trevor Linden, gave Messier the C when Messier went there. He had the respect of his fellow players (like Sakic has), while also holding them accountable for their actions (and inactions).
The problems with the Rangers were a lot deeper than motivation. Messier was without a doubt the best captain in NHL history. He's far and away a better leader than Joe Sakic ever dreamed of being.
As a player, I don't know, I may be biased, but I think Sakic was better.
by Neptune on May 7, 2008 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Joe
It's time to slam to door on this discussion. We've been through this. Thomas/Neptune has his opinion, everybody else has thiers. End of story. Nobody will "see the light" by rehashing this. We're getting close to thin ice in some of this discussion...
Re: Joe
Hence my "update" above.
There are some sacred cows that just can't be pushed over.
If it continues this thread is closed.
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