On Rivalry, Trolls, and Being an Adult
by Joe Dunman on Oct 18, 2009 5:31 PM MDT
in NHL News
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PrintThough many people will deny it to the end, the rivalry between the Colorado Avalanche and the Detroit Red Wings may never die. It certainly has not died yet. Here at MHH, we make no effort to hide this, as last night's game thread will attest. Watching the Avs beat the Wings will always bring us joy, will always make us proud, and will always feel like good triumphing over evil.
There's no doubt that the rivalry is not the same as it was before. The Blood Feud days are over. But even though the original players are nearly completely gone, and though the teams have transitioned or are transitioning into less-dominant positions in the league, the deep hatred between their fan bases persists.
Red Wings fans would have you believe that hatred for the Avalanche is now below them. Their team has become so dominant, and the Avs so terrible, that Colorado is now unworthy of their ire. Why would a team so consitently atop the Western Conference stoop to worry about a former rival suffering through the darkest days of their franchise's history?
While most Wings fans seem to live in denial of the rivalry's persistence, there is little doubt many of them harbor the same hatred for us that we still hold for them. What else would inspire a Detroit fan to visit the blog of the Avs' newspaper beat writer just to publicly ridicule and disparage the family of the other team's star 18 year-old rookie? Maybe Detroit fans are just so bored that they literally have nothing else to do, but I doubt it. In Detroit, there's always a fire to set or a house to bulldoze. In truth, those hateful, juvenile comments left by Wings fans on Adrian Dater's recent blog post were motivated by their deep hatred for anything having to do with the Colorado Avalanche.
Those comments, now deleted despite Dater's initial failed attempts to erase them, were typical of the kind of petty, juvenile hatred we're used to seeing on Wings' blogs and message boards. They're really nothing new. The controversy, if there is one at all, arose from Dater's inability to effectively moderate his blog's comments section. He felt forced to harshly respond to trolls and he subsequently alienated some of his readers by doing so.
One of the strengths of Mile High Hockey, I think, has been our willingness to shut down trolls when they appear. Blatantly hateful and petty comments by fans of opposing teams are erased and the writers are banned. Sometimes we've been able to do this so quickly that most readers and commenters never knew they were there at all.
While this may strike some as heavy-handed or contrary to higher standards of free speech, it works very well at maintaining order and civility. And let's not kid ourselves, Mile High Hockey is not a democratic society. It's a community of fans, but a heavily-moderated community. While we foster spirited discussions and disagreements, we do not tolerate hateful comments from trolls just looking for an angry reaction. This policy, which has worked very well for more than two years, will never change.
I believe, from both experience and faith, that Avalanche fans as a whole are more mature and more civil than Red Wings fans. I also believe that our team's recent troubles have made us more humble and also more appreciative of any small victories our boys in Burgundy and Blue may achieve throughout the season. Wings fans have not had to endure the indignity of missing the playoffs or finishing near the bottom of the pile in many, many years. They've become spoiled and obnoxious because of it. This fact rears its ugly head periodically, as it did on Dater's blog, when Wings fans ridicule Steve Moore, the victim of a shameless attack, a broken neck, and a ruined career. It also becomes apparent when Wings fans criticize the physical appearance of the women in Matt Duchene's family.
It's one thing to make fun of the opposing team's city, or their arena, or their players on the ice, or their fans as a whole. It's another to stoop so low as to make fun of serious injuries* or make sexist jokes at the expense of family members. We here at MHH will continue to hate the Wings, always and forever, but we'll do so without shedding our dignity.
*In the past, some MHH members have made fun of the major injuries suffered by Kris Draper in 1996 when he was hit from behind by Claude Lemieux. I discourage these kinds of jokes and will continue to do so. I hate Kris Draper and think he's one of the dirtiest players in recent league history, but I'll never wish injury or suffering on anyone, even a Red Wings player.
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spot on, my friend.
and very nicely put.
The 2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche: too naive to think they can lose.
"To all the cynics, I'm sorry for you, ... I'm sorry you can't believe in miracles."
-Lance Armstrong
by BeachNSnowGirl on Oct 18, 2009 5:44 PM MDT reply actions
thank you
now amidst all the reaction to dater’s post no one has been able to give any news on darcy tucker. he limped to the bench in the third and didnt return to the game. hows the guy doin? any news on an injury, itd be a shame to see him go down when he’s playing so well for us now.
by joesakicisahockeygod on Oct 18, 2009 5:50 PM MDT reply actions
As I was walking back from the JLA to get to the tunnel bus last night, I encountered some douchebag wearing a Bertuzzi jersey telling me that the Avs still suck. However, he said he admired Joe Sakic (I was wearing a Sakic jersey). I just told him that his jersey is an abomination and that Bertuzzi belongs in jail. The he said Steve Moore was an awful hockey player and probably wouldn’t have done anything in the league anyways.
I told him he probably never saw Moore play before, and he was like “never question me about hockey”. Whatever bud. Wouldn’t be surprised if he were the one spamming Dater’s blog.
I like the reasoning that assault and neck-breaking is OK if done to a non-star player.
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
Same old story
Opening night at the Pepsi Center, walking along the south side of the building after the game. You’ll recall, of course, that this was an Avs/Sharks game, but some guy there thought it was a good idea to where a Todd Bertuzzi Red Wings jersey, then became indignant when everyone walking by had something to say to him. He was pretty upset. Todd Bertuzzi Red Wings sweaters in this state are the lowest of lows.
"You were born to be a player. You were meant to be here. This moment is yours." -- Coach Herb Brooks' pregame speech prior to the Miracle on Ice
I believe that qualifies as “His own damn fault”.
Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.
by UZ on Oct 19, 2009 8:35 AM MDT up reply actions
Might as well
put a big “kick my ass because I’m a moron” sign on his back, imo.
Where will you be on October 1st, 2009 at 6:45 PM Mountain Time?
by Bob in Boulder on Oct 19, 2009 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions
I dispise hypocritical fans
It’s one thing to state an opinion, even if people completely disagree with it. That’s going to happen even intra-fan base. But when fans post all of the web, Dater’s blog, Excluding Z, etc., claiming that the Red Wings didn’t lose, the Avalanche tied them, it’s a disgrace. They weren’t claiming they “tied” Dallas two years ago when Datsyuk had the beautiful shootout goal. Like or dislike the shootout rule, it’s stupidity, even for them, to claim we tied them. I look at the standings and I see a win for us and an overtime LOSS for them. It’s pathetic.
Also, I missed the game thread and I am sure this was said, but it is beyond fitting and apropos that Boy Wonder scores his first goal against the Evil Empire. I am glad he waited to score, it made it sweeter for me.
Avalanche 2009-2010: We we fend off 7 man power plays? Do you?
I was surprised
When I heard Wings fans applauding when Foote got up from his little injury. There was no booing. And I thought it was classy, which is a rare thought of mine when thinking about Wing fans.
Then a couple of Wing fans go over to AD’s blog to remind me how classless they can be. When your team loses and the only thing you can do to make yourself feel better is to attack issues not related to the game on the other teams blog is pathetic. Take the loss on the chin and grow a pair. The ladies on MHH have more balls than these trolls do.
Hopefully #9 is not ten less than #19
The ladies on MHH have more balls than these trolls do.
Oh hell yeah we do. And more class, I’m very sure we’re better looking, more intelligent. Do I need to continue?
An ounce of confidence can carry you a mile toward winning. Oh, and Red Wings suck.
smell better?
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Oct 18, 2009 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Joe, please dont try and speak for me. When it comes to the Wings I’m willing to shed all of my dignity.
by Dario on Oct 18, 2009 6:48 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
i think wings fans have a lack of respect towards other teams. I mean look at the stink they raised when Crosby ‘snubbed’ Lindstrom after Game 7. I would be hard pressed to find a wings fan who can say that ‘oh yah i dont like team x but i really respect player y’
Make Me A Milkshake, Malkin! - Mike Lange
How I know the rivalry is still alive
They go out of their way to proclaim that it’s over. When rivalries die, they just fade away. Detroit and Toronto used to be rivals, now that they are in seperate conferences they just don’t care about each other. There was no proclamations or blog posts or articles about, it just faded away.
But when Wings fans and whiny-ass goalies trip all over themselves to proclaim it dead, it’s the same as an ex-girlfriend sending you pictures of her and some other guy claiming she’s over you because she’s having fun with he new flame.
In other words, she’s not over you.
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 18, 2009 8:24 PM MDT reply actions
There’s also a former Avalanche player who, before he chose to come back to the Avalanche last time, turned down any and all inquiries from Detroit because of the rivalry. That was Peter Forsberg. Ken Holland said in an interview that he didn’t think that Forsberg was interested in playing for the Wings because of all of the stuff that happened in the past.
another reason to love Foppa. truly peter the great.
The 2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche: too naive to think they can lose.
"To all the cynics, I'm sorry for you, ... I'm sorry you can't believe in miracles."
-Lance Armstrong
by BeachNSnowGirl on Oct 19, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Also
There’s a lot of idiots out there, and unfortunately they didn’t make the internet idiot proof (Evidence: Red Wings blogs)
Daters site easily gets the most traffic, and therefore will attract the most idiots. And most of them are trolls who just need the attention. The best thing to do is ignore them, they’ll go somewhere else to troll.
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 18, 2009 8:39 PM MDT reply actions
If they made the internet idiot proof there would no longer be an internet as 90% of the userbase would be gone.
Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.
by UZ on Oct 19, 2009 8:38 AM MDT up reply actions
I am married to a man from Detroit
whose entire family are huge Red Wing fans. Trust me – the rivalry his very much alive and well. And do you know what will fuel it more than anything? The Avs continuing to OWN the Red Wings.
My husband usually doesn’t get that worked up about Avs games (unlike me), but when it comes to the ones against the Wings, those are the only ones he really wants the Avs to win. If the Avs lose, we get a huge does of heckling from his family. Last night, when Duchene scored his goal, my husband jumped up, starting yelling and screaming through the house saying “I just love that it was against the Wings. That was the BEST present he could have game me.” He then said “I just want this streak to last another week, so they beat the Wings again on Saturday.” Rivalry dead – NO WAY! I live it every day.
Colorado Avalanche: Please excuse the mess while we are under construction.
Totally rigged
If I remember Wings rants correctly, the Red Wings lost because Bettman had something to do with it, or the refs were wanting the Avs to win.
But I guess the Avs still suck, despite winning 4 of the last 5.
*
It was a clean hit on Draper.
There is basically a cumulative Niagra Falls of shit happening right now.
by Pinchy The Lobster on Oct 18, 2009 10:54 PM MDT reply actions
I believe, from both experience and faith, that Avalanche fans as a whole are more mature and more civil than Red Wings fans.
That should help calm things down…
but I’ll never wish injury or suffering on anyone, even a Red Wings player.
I’m not going to say anything about that statement for fear of a heavily-moderated reaction.
Thanks for setting us sheep straight Reverend Joe. I don’t know… the whole thing felt preachy and I hate feeling like I’ve just been preached at. Just sayin’.
There is basically a cumulative Niagra Falls of shit happening right now.
by Pinchy The Lobster on Oct 18, 2009 11:48 PM MDT reply actions
Mile High Hockey is not a democratic society.It’s a community of fans
It’s a dictatorship. Us common folk see Joe about as often as Cubans see Fidel Castro nowadays. The Evil Henchmen of Satiric and Evil at our Xpense (copywright pending for “Teh Sex”) are moderating our thoughts and it will be a matter of time until they force a revolution, with all fans marching to Bettman’s house. He will force a rename of a certain team to “The Detroit Deadthings”.
Nothing to see here, move along...
Faithfully yours,
The Ministry of Truth
2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche - "Hey Brother, can you spare a Left Winger?"
What are the versus stats of Colorado and Detroit per year?
I know we went something like 3-1 (Colorado won) last year.
Because I think that we can still speak of a rivalry if we look at the year to year differences.
after reading this piece
I wonder which Joe we’re missing the most this year
Hyphens cause writers more trouble than any other form of punctuation, except perhaps commas.
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Oct 19, 2009 7:00 AM MDT reply actions
blatant one at that. It would be like me telling my wife that I love her as much as I love Peter Forsberg. Did I just type that out loud?
Where will you be on October 1st, 2009 at 6:45 PM Mountain Time?
by Bob in Boulder on Oct 19, 2009 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Good article. I personally have no real problem with the rivalry and haven’t since the lock-out, in fact I was rooting for the Wings in the cup finals last year just because I hate the Penguins so goddamn much…
But Wings fans are really taking this too far.
Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.
Good article. I personally have no real problem with the rivalry and haven’t since the lock-out, in fact I was rooting for the Wings in the cup finals last year just because I hate the Penguins so goddamn much…
He’s a witch… BURN HIM
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 19, 2009 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 19, 2009 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Tie him to Dan
and see if they float.
Where will you be on October 1st, 2009 at 6:45 PM Mountain Time?
by Bob in Boulder on Oct 19, 2009 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions
My distaste for any other team disappears the second they take the ice against the Wings.
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
yep
my second favorite NHL team will always be whoever is playing the wings. Always.
Where will you be on October 1st, 2009 at 6:45 PM Mountain Time?
by Bob in Boulder on Oct 19, 2009 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Ha ha ha!
Comedy gold, Bob, comedy gold! That line never gets old, even though you’ve used it for years! Well done, Woody would be proud.
I like the Wings and I’m proud to tell you why. I like Detroit because: they give their team a chance to win everything every single season; they play up-tempo, entertaining hockey; they’re inadvertently responsible for us finally having a #1 defenseman; and they have sweet uniforms. The real douchebags are gone or going soon, and there’s not so much left to hate there. I wish our team was run as well as their team. I’m jealous of their talent and their executives.
Love your stuff, “BiB,” keep up the puns and corny old jokes.
Oh, and let me address some of your possible objections: Here, for example, are probably a few Wings you don’t like:
1. Kris Draper
2. Kirk Maltby
3. Chris Osgood (you probably think he’s a diver and learned from Hasek)
4. Todd “Fricken” Bertuzzi
5. Brad “the bounty hunter” May
6. Nicklas “leaves his feet on every big check” Kronwall
7. Thomas Holmstrom
So look – Draper and Maltby are on their last legs. Bertuzzi and May don’t count, they’re there for one year, max. Osgood doesn’t bother me. Some people thought Forsberg was a big diver. I didn’t see it, and I don’t see it with Osgood. He’s admirable – talk about a guy who’s gotten everything, and more, from his pretty limited talent. Wish Wolski had even half as much heart.
You’re making shit up about Kronwall, going out of your way to find something to justify your hatred. I wish we had that guy on our team. Wish Footer had that snarl again. Wish Quincey wasn’t our only physical defenseman. You’d love a big hitter like that on the Avs, and I’m sure you didn’t complain the times that Footer and Claude and others crossed that line. In fact, you revel in what Lemieux did to Draper, so stop being a hypocrite about Kronwall. Whose face did he ever break?
About Holmstrom…again, he’s a guy I’d love to have on my team, and you would, too. How is he different than any other grinders we’ve had and loved, like Kono, Deader, Smyth, or Claude?
Hatred’s unhealthy, my friend. Let it go, you’ll live longer.
by Dan Winkler on Oct 20, 2009 1:11 AM MDT up reply actions
I disagree strongly with two things. Their uniforms suck donkey kong. And Osgood rivals the Italian Soccer team as the biggest diver in proffessional sports(Excluding Diving)
The Savage has spoken. Let it be done
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference"
R. Frost
What was the point of this? It doesn’t matter which players are on the Red Wings—-they’re still the Red Wings.
What the hell is the point of rooting for any team if you root for them all? I mean, that’s admirable and all, but this is a partisan community, and if you can’t at least play along with the partisanship, why bother participating?
Fuck the Red Wings, even if Jesus himself is their second line center.
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
by Joe Dunman on Oct 20, 2009 6:29 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bob told me he’d hate them even if Mother Theresa was on their team. So I don’t know how good Jesus and Mother Theresa would be, if they’d be on the same line together like Sakic and Forsberg used to be, or if they’d be the 1-2 centers, or maybe Mother Theresa would be a 3rd-line checking center and penalty killing specialist. All I know is that would be a pretty holy combo if that ever happened.
Thanks for pointing out to me that this is a partisan community, Joe, appreciate it. Didn’t know it meant I couldn’t appreciate other teams, too. In fact, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mean that, so I’ll stick with what I said about Detroit. And sorry I didn’t seem to get your unwritten rules about participating in this thread. Saw the words “Rivalry” and “Adult” in the headline, maybe that’s what tripped me up.
Their fans do absolutely, completely suck, though, in general.
by Dan Winkler on Oct 20, 2009 8:19 AM MDT up reply actions
I've heard that Jesus is a pretty good goalie.
People are always telling me that he saves.
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 20, 2009 8:28 AM MDT up reply actions
You’re free to appreciate any other team you want, but why appreciate the Wings on an Avalanche blog that avowedly hates anything and everything to do with the Wings? Seems like you’re just being contrary to be contrary.
Go post favorable comments about the Wings on a Wings blog.
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
So everyone on this blog has to avowedly hate anything and everything to do with the Wings? We all think alike? Interesting, I’ve never gotten that from this site, but maybe I’m wrong.
I’m not being contrary to be contrary, but even if I was, so the fuck what? It’s an opinion, surprised you’re making such a big deal out of it. Like you said earlier in this thread, “It’s my opinion, and you’re free to disagree with it. Doesn’t hurt my feelings one bit.”
by Dan Winkler on Oct 20, 2009 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions
I’m not saying we all have to think alike, of course not. And you’re welcome to share your opinion—-I didn’t delete it, merely commented to it.
But don’t act surprised when you get some blowback for being just about the ONLY Avalanche fan that will stick up for the Red Wings in a vastly anti-Wings community.
I think I’m going to go over to a Bruins blog and leave a comment saying, “you know guys, maybe the Habs aren’t so bad,” and then act surprised when I get bad-mouthed.
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
As a fellow Red Wings hater (and one who wants to keep the Wings-Leafs rivalry alive, even though it probably has faded away and my team is playing like so much crap now we’d probably get owned), well said. Keep up the good fight, ladies and gentlemen.
That being said, your team beating mine last week was definitely a bummer. :(
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!
I believe, from both experience and faith, that Avalanche fans as a whole are more mature and more civil than Red Wings fans.
Obviously this is the case:
Fuck the Red Wings, even if Jesus himself is their second line center…Their uniforms suck donkey kong…In Detroit, there’s always a fire to set or a house to bulldoze….some MHH members have made fun of the major injuries…So our fans are worse than your fans, because of a couple random idiots (or idiot bloggers)?
As for the central theme, a rivalry is always lessened on one side and intensified on the other, if one side begins to dominate. The average fan’s intensity of hate has lessened over time toward the Avalanche, as they have become less of a threat and the memories of Draper, goalie center ice fights, etc fade over time. This may change as Detroit’s star wanes, but as of now, it’s still the truth.
The rivalry is lessened but you still took the time to create a user account just to post a comment.
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
RWs totally would have have done that for the Lightning.
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 20, 2009 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Seriously
I am a firm believer that every team has their random idiots, just go to any teams official message boards, or the local papers comment sections, and that will be confirmed pretty quickly.
But Jesus RW fans are the worst, and there isn’t even a close second. Maybe because it’s the biggest bandwagon hockey team in the states, or maybe the success has gone to RW fans heads, or maybe years of listening to Mickey Redmond call games has morphed RW fans into whiny bitches, but they are Yankees fans, Red Sox fans, Man U fans, Lakers fans and Cowboys fans nicely wrapped into an obnoxious burrito. And most of them enjoy that distinction.
Personally I think it’s the bandwagonism. Bandwagoners are the worst people around, so even though there’s evidence of intelligent RW fans out there, like Christy over at Winging it in Motown, the face of the Red Wings fan is the knuckle-dragger who invades Puck Daddy or Dater’s blog after even the smallest of slights with comments along the lines of
YOUR ALL JUST JEALOUS OF THE GREATEST TEAM TO EVER PLAY THE GAME OF HOCKEY. YOU JUST WISH YOU’RE TEAM WERE HALF AS GOOD AS THE GREATEST TEAM EVER.
or the asshole in San Jose who saw my Avs hat and yelled “Avalanche fucking suck” … in front of his 2-year old kid (Classy!). I lived in Raiders country (near Oakland) and wore Broncos gear in public and the least classy display of sportsmanship was by a RW fan in San Jose, CA. Not a Sharks fan, not a Raiders fan, not a douchebag transplanted Lakers fan from LA… a Red Wings fan.
My co-worker out in San Jose was a season ticket holder for the Sharks, and (without provocation from me) told me that the RW were the worst because their fans were insufferable.
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Oct 20, 2009 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions
And they’re goddamn EVERYWHERE.
(Mostly because nobody actually lives in Detroit anymore)
The Avs may (or may not) suck now, but they've still won a Cup more recently than 75% of the NHL.
There seems to be a pattern.
Red Wings fans are everywhere, and they are incredibly annoying.
Pittsburgh fans (both Steelers and Penguins) are everywhere and they are incredibly annoying.
Dallas Cowboys fans are everywhere, and they are incredibly annoying.
Every place I’ve ever worked, there’s always been at least one Red Wings fan, many Steelers and Penguins fans, and one Cowboys fan.
The pattern I think I’m seeing is that when a team’s fans are widespread throughout the country, then they become incredibly annoying.
by Inebriated Simian Miscreants on Oct 20, 2009 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Somehow the Red Wing seem to be the most popular team in Perth, Australia. WTF is wrong with this world. people I didn’t even know liked hockey seem to like the Red Wings, admittedly it might have more to do with me being an avid Avs fans and them supporting them because I despise them but I doubt it.
The Savage has spoken. Let it be done
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference"
R. Frost
As a Red Wings fan who lives just outside of Detroit I can tell you we don’t want the rivalry to be over but the best part of it is behind us. Even though the fans still hate each other, it was the hatred the players had for one another that made it great. Do you really think Matt Duchene has any hatred for Darren Helm or vise versa? They were 10 years old living in Canada, do you really think that now that they are a member of the Avalanche or the Red Wings that they have this deep rooted hatred for one another? It will never be what it once was, which is the greatest 7 years in hockey.
You guys have to remember, either one of those teams would have had a dynasty if they didn’t stand in each other’s way and then you add the Lemieux-Draper incident in 96 and the brawl in 97 and thats how it became great. It was the perfect storm, enjoy the memories because the odds of both teams becoming that dominant simultaneously for that long of a stretch and have a Lemieux-Draper type incident happen again is damn near impossible.
The rivalry is between the fans now, not the players. Now I’m sure you will all go bitching and complaining about my post because thats what trolls do. I hope the rivalry returns to be what it once was, but it won’t.
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