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Avalanche Kung Fu; Summon Chi! Find Center.

 

Leevsnorrisavalanche_medium

 

Now:

  • Stastny   (center) DOB: 12/27/1985 Age: 23
  • Duchene  (center) DOB: 01/16/1991 Age: 18
  • O'Reilly    (center) DOB: 01/07/1991 Age: 18
  • Galiardi    (center) DOB: 04/22/1988 Age: 21


Then (1996):

  • Sakic      (center) DOB: 07/07/1969 Age: 27
  • Forsberg (center) DOB: 07/20/1973 Age: 23
  • Yelle       (center) DOB: 04/09/1974 Age: 22
  • Ricci       (center) DOB: 10/27/1971 Age: 24

Star-divide


For those of you with Detroit public educations, break out a calculator and add four years to the ages of each of the current Avalanche centermen.  For the rest of you I'm sure it was pretty obvious.  I'm not drawing any clear cut conclusions between a current staff of kids and Hall of famers from 1996.  I just think it's ....interesting.

The other day I was reading one of the many Internet conversations that debated if the Avalanche were "for real".  On some Canadian sites I read multiple exclamations of "I hope not, I'm sick of the Avalanche".  That's a wonderful thing to hear about your team in that context.  However, it was a mantra of several Canadians who were fans of various Canadian franchises.  What really has baked their noodles is that the Avs compete in division with several Canadian clubs and Canadians as a whole are flat out desperate to bring the Cup North of the border.  So why haven't they gone on some of these cup runs that we've seen from New Jersey Devils, Detroit Red Wings, Dallas Stars, Colorado Avalanche, Anaheim Ducks etc...?  These clubs spend money, have tramendous fan support and will do anything legally possible to compete.  Bad luck? I'm sure that has something to do with it.  In the modern era we've seen Canadian clubs get close like Calgary Flames, Edmonton Oilers, Ottawa Senators, Montreal Canadians etc... but even with those pushes they never sustained those runs.  They just seem to melt away.  Goaltending, coaching and overall talent all play a factor for sure.  But I have a different theory, those franchises are building around the wrong positions, namely the center.

As every Detroit Red Wing fan knows, the NHL began in 1996 so I'll go by that glorious year to point out a few observations regarding Stanley Cup winning teams.

1996: No need to list them again but notible wingers that year were Lemieux, Deadmarsh, Kamensky, Young, and Keane.  As much as we loved those guys, they were the first to go.  More on that theme later.
1997: Detroit centered Yzerman, Larionov, Federov and Draper.  As we know, that ilk stayed together for a while and it worked out for the empire of evil.
1998: Detroit centered Yzerman, Larionov, Federov and Draper.  Rumor has it things were nasty between the Avs and Detroit that year.
1999: Dallas centered Modano, Nieuwendyk, and Carbonneau.  Guy Carbonneau and Nieuwendyk represent everything hated about the deadpuck era.  But they did it well.
2000: New Jersey centered Arnott, Holik, Madden and the unheralded Brylin.  Left wing lock wins the cup.
2001: Avs center Sakic, Forsberg, Yelle, Drury (as we know Drury and Foppa shifted in and out as wingers, I'll get to that). Brad Smith foiled the left wing lock and the good guys won.
2002: Detroit centered Yzerman, Federov, Larionov and Datsyuk for good measure.  Yeesh.  Like the Avs the year before they were so deep at center they shifted them to wingers on a short bench at times.
2003: New Jersey centered Elias, Madden, Nieuwendyk and Brylin.  Familiar names.
2004: Tampa Bay centered Lacavalier, Richards, and Taylor.  They let Richards go instead of wingers and that's worked out really well so far.
2005: Bettman centered his lawyers Bazz, Dewey, Grabowski and Bendover.
2006: Carolina centered Brind'Amour, Staal, Cullen and Weight. Fallen off this year but made a good run when Brind'Amour still had his legs up to 2008.
2007: Anaheim centered Getzlaf, McDonald, Marchant AND Phalsson. So deep they shifted R. Niedermayer to wing.  Good grief.
2008: Detroit stays strong up the middle with Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula, Franzen and mix in Draper, Helm and Hudler while shifting Franzen and Datsyuk to winger due to their center depth.  Good grief x2.
2009: Pittsburgh centers Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Talbot. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Yeah, it's pretty self evident that championship teams have good centers but they have good wingers and D men too of course.  But you know what?  There are a lot of NHL teams with good wingers and defense.  They just never seem to get over the hump.

Calgary is trying to build around Iginla at right wing and who can blame them, he's amazing.  But that team is stuck in a rut until they get deeper down the middle.  Instead they are trading for wingers, defensemen and goaltending.  I think it's the wrong emphasis and maybe Anaheim and Colorado are partially to blame.  So many point to the great defensive pairings that they convieniently forget how strong those teams were at center.  Vancouver has largely done the same thing by spending franchise assets on wingers like Bertuzzi, Naslund and D. Sedin.  The combination of H. Sedin and Morrison for a time made them a team to reckon with but they seem bound and determined to build their club from the wingers in.  Edmonton?  Let's put it this way, they bet the farm on one of Anaheims wingers in Penner.  They've lauded the talents of Hemsky for years.  Like Calgary and Vancouver they are spending assets on wingers, D and goaltending.

To me, the center position is pivotal (pun intended) to successful hockey.  It's why Yashin never could do it alone, why Jagr never carried a team in Washington or Kovulchuk in Atlanta.  Ovechkin is trying his damnedest in Washington but they will continue to be bridesmaids until they get deeper behind Backstrom at the key center position.  Chicago is going to dump all their salary in to wingers, defensemen with one centerman deep.  I think that's the wrong way to build your club for the ultimate prize.

No matter what happens to Colorado this year I'm totally blown away with how quickly they've built up the middle of their lineup.  Last year at one point the Avs centered Tyler Arnason as the first line center.  That is how bad things got.  Now?  They could be set up for the next 10 years at center.

The modern NHL is dominated by solid goaltending for sure, but to me I think the center holds as much water, if not more so than said goaltender.  When I play hockey the last position I want to play is the damned center position.  That poor bastard has to skate from goaline to goaline while I can get to rest my heels on the sideboards at the defensive end.  As a winger I get breakout passes if I cherry pick the D and I get a lot of 1v1 time when clearing the zone while my poor centerman is skating his ass off to catch up to the play.  I know that if he dogs it, my team is a lot worse.  My beer league has nothing to do with NHL hockey, I'll be the first to admit.  But I know which position is the toughest on the ice after goaltender.  The 20 year olds play center, this old man plays wing. 

In the modern NHL you can disguise weakness at center with good special teams play when center matters less and you can certainly put up a lot of goals when you shift out Ovechkin.  But teams built on long term success and teams that compete at the highest level have strength up the middle.  O'Reilly, Duchene, Galiardi and Stastny represent the perfect way to rebuild.  They aren't going to be in a lot of highlight reels for now but they are controlling the ice at both ends and are a huge reason for the Avs quick turn around. 

Can you begin to imagine where these centers (and the Avs) might be in four years?  I'm beginning to think we may not have to wait that long.

MileHighHockey.com is a fan community, allowing members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Colorado Avalanche and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editors of MileHighHockey.com.

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nice post!

i completely agree: there are many good teams, even cup winning teams, that are built around stellar wingers. But dynasties are built around centers.

by thedoctor on Dec 14, 2009 11:46 AM MST reply actions  

Wow, great post as always Dario. The future’s so bright, we should wear shades? I hope the Avs are able to keep those four guys and build around them. I’m thinking that eventually Duchene will become our number 1 center and franchise guy. And Stats sure as heck isn’t a bad number 2, eh?

My only caveat is, well, “you never know what the future will bring.” I remember being in Seattle in 1994, at game 5 between the Sonics and Nuggets, the first time a number 8 seed ever beat a number 1 seed. I remember watching the game later on tape, and Dick Enberg commenting on what made the feat even more incredible was that this Denver team was the youngest in the NBA. Their future looked so bright. Well, I believe last season was the Nugs’ first playoff series win since that year. But hopefully the Avalanche “blue print” for success will hold true.

And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.

by Bob in Boulder on Dec 14, 2009 12:08 PM MST reply actions  

Yes, it’s still early. I think this manefesto is more about centers and why they carry so much more importance than other skaters. I can’t say it’s a bullet proof theory but there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that since the Gretzky era the most important players in the game have come from center and goaltender. Even Howe played with Abel for part of his HOF years and the great Montreal winger Lafleur might have been the last true dominate winger to carry a team to Stanley Cup wins. Then again a lot of old timers will tell you that Lefleur was able to do what he did because Shutt (HOF) was on his off wing and Bowman would more often than not center those two with the defensive minded Jacques Lemaire.

by Dario on Dec 14, 2009 2:06 PM MST up reply actions  

2009: Pittsburg centers Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Talbot. Thats fucking ridiculous.

I had many LULZ

Mile High Hockey: Hoping for the best, expecting the worst, hating the Wings.

by Joe Dunman on Dec 14, 2009 12:32 PM MST reply actions  

Also,

2004: Bettman centered his lawyers Bazz, Dewey, Grabowski and Bendover.

I’ve already applied for a job at that firm.

Mile High Hockey: Hoping for the best, expecting the worst, hating the Wings.

by Joe Dunman on Dec 14, 2009 12:33 PM MST up reply actions  

speaking of bending over

funny story. When I lived in Seattle (two OT Seattle posts in one thread?), some of the local minor league baseball teams in the area used to play a team from Bend, OR. The local sports radio station always seized the moment when Bend beat one of those teams, leading in with “And it was Bend over Everett last night. That’s right, bend over Everett.”

And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.

by Bob in Boulder on Dec 14, 2009 12:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Is your nickname Everett? And thanks for prefacing that funny story with “funny story,” that helped alot.

by Dan Winkler on Dec 14, 2009 3:38 PM MST up reply actions  

My arch nemesis and long-time friend, the Tony Granato fan club, surfaces again!

And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.

by Bob in Boulder on Dec 14, 2009 6:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Pittsburgh. You forgot the h!

by c0nquistad0rian on Dec 14, 2009 12:43 PM MST reply actions  

To that end, at least with the Penguins, their rebuild started from the net out with Fleury and defensmen such as Ryan Whitney (even though he wasn’t a part of that championship team, he gave them first line winger Chris Kunitz), Brooks Orpik, and Rob Scuderi being drafted and getting NHL experience before Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Talbot were ever brought in.

Yes, looking at the Avs’ depth at center is very promising. But, they always say that defensemen and especially goaltenders take longer time to develop than forwards do.

Is a then 32-33 year old Anderson still going to be the guy in net 4 years down the road? It’s possible. I like to compare Anderson to Tim Thomas: both journeymen American goalies who worked hard to get to the NHL and to become starting goaltenders. Thomas’s best NHL season so far came last year when he was 34 (and turned 35 in April). If Anderson isn’t still Colorado’s guy, who will be? Will a younger NHL goalie like, Weiman, Cann, Sauer, Delmas, set the team back in its development and goals?

As for the defense, I think that we’re all excited about the defensive prospects that the Avs have. But are guys like Shattenkirk, Cohen, and Holos, who would presumably be trying to make the jump from the collegiate and European professional ranks, respectively be able to come in and be solid NHL players right away?

by c0nquistad0rian on Dec 14, 2009 12:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Defense is important of course. But I think the position you want depth at is center for sure. The 2001 Avalanche team afforded DeVries, Klemm and Miller big free agent deals. While those guys were really solid defensemen I don’t think they were anything overtly special. I’d have given up every single one of them to retain Yelle as the 3rd line center.

In four years a lot can change, including all the defensemen. I just hope that when it comes to moving a player (ala Drury for Morris) that Avs management understands that center just holds more weight. At least, that’s how I would look at it. It’s great to trade Deadmarsh for a top pairing D. But if I were Anaheim I would be more concerned about losing Phalsson and McDonald than letting Pronger go. A lot of people think that’s totally nuts, but it’s a working theory I’m not finding a lot of evidence against at the moment.

by Dario on Dec 14, 2009 1:53 PM MST up reply actions  

But if I were Anaheim I would be more concerned about losing Phalsson and McDonald than letting Pronger go. A lot of people think that’s totally nuts, but it’s a working theory I’m not finding a lot of evidence against at the moment.

There’s no denying that depth at center is something you want to aim for. But, quality defensemen are much harder to come by. Trading value is higher and probably most importantly, their presence is much harder to replace. Anaheim got on just fine without McDonald and Pahlsson. Were they still seeking more depth at center? Yes. Now they have some with the addition of Saku Koivu. But a Chris Pronger is no easy guy to replace and you see that now that they’re on the bottom of the western conference. Heck, when Pronger was traded to Anaheim, Edmonton’s then GM Lowe told Anaheim’s then GM Burke something along the lines of he’s trading Anaheim a trip to the cup finals. Burke responded by adding an additional first round pick, contingent on the team actually getting to the cup final (which we all know they did and won).

The Penguins power play with Sergei Gonchar and without him is also a very good example of what a top defensive presence means to a club. True, the Pens’ power play may still be struggling at the moment. But after seeing how lackluster their power play has been these past couple of years with him out of the line up due to injury, you really see what he means to the team, even amongst the star power of guys like Crosby, Malking, and Staal.

Jibbles actually also wrote a very interesting post late last season about the value of defensemen to cup championship teams: http://jibblescribbits.blogspot.com/2009/04/offense-wins-games.html

I’m not saying by any means that the Avs’ depth at center is anything scoff at. It’s something that I’m very excited about and I hope that most NHL teams are jealous about it. But, I am saying that for this team to be able to take it to the next level, they are going to either have to give up quite a bit to get at least one top tier defenseman, or their defensive prospects are going to have to step into the NHL and play at an elite level nearly right away and that’s just not as likely to happen.

We’re already hearing rumblings of something to that end every time us fans make a comment craving a booming shot from the point. Dater recently said

The Avs clearly need right-handed, big-booming guy on the power play.
My first thought was “Colby Cohen!” But, I recall a comment that Jori made about Cohen’s development. She said that Cohen, who is a junior this year, will probably still need time in the minors to develop after his senior year. Stefan Elliot, Kevin Shattenkirk, and Tyson Barrie are also right handed shooting defenseman prospects for the Avs, for what it’s worth.

It’s really going to be interesting to see how this team starts incorporating its defensive prospects into the line up. I hope that they can turn it into something big.

by c0nquistad0rian on Dec 14, 2009 11:49 PM MST up reply actions  

On a From The Rink article, I recently called it that the Avs will be Cup contenders in 3 years. I’m glad you have the logic to back up that claim! Thanks Dario. Great article as always. And fab pic!

You mean the Avs aren't going to get the top draft pick this summer???

by BeachNSnowGirl on Dec 14, 2009 12:54 PM MST reply actions  

The Lightning won in 2004 not in 2005.

by chileiceman on Dec 14, 2009 1:03 PM MST reply actions  

fixed. I always call the lockout year 2004 but obviously the cup wasn’t awarded in 2005.

by Dario on Dec 14, 2009 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

I enjoyed this a lot

Hyphens cause writers more trouble than any other form of punctuation, except perhaps commas.

by David Driscoll-Carignan on Dec 14, 2009 1:04 PM MST reply actions  

I have made this argument many times with fans demanding more star power at wing for the Avs. I know the doctor has as well. Centers and defensemen first. We could use another winger right now, though.

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Dec 14, 2009 1:05 PM MST reply actions  

yeah, don’t need a super one, just a decent one. Rene Bourque has been mentioned in some circles, I wouldn’t mind that at all.

by thedoctor on Dec 14, 2009 1:46 PM MST up reply actions  

It can’t ever be a bad thing to have so many strong centers that one or two have to be shifted to the wing. Just sayin…

Oh, and btw, that top list up there, you know…the one with the “Now” above it? /drool

You mean the Avs aren't going to get the top draft pick this summer???

by BeachNSnowGirl on Dec 14, 2009 1:17 PM MST reply actions  

Jason Arnott: drafted and developed by the Edmonton Oilers
Igor Larionov: scouted by the Vancouver Canucks and brought over from Russia
Kris Draper: sold for 1$ by Winnipeg to Detroit
Joe Niewendyke: drafted and won a cup for the Calgary Flames
Guy Carboneau: former Montreal Canadiens captain

If you cant draft good players steal them from dumb Canadian team GMs.
Our good friend Brian Burke decided to trade his first round picks for the next decade for a winger.

by NEB on Dec 14, 2009 1:39 PM MST reply actions  

Yeah, that Kessel trade is going to look good at times but I don’t think he’s going to give that organization any winning stability. Chicago is the real litmus test I think. They are locked in to Kane/Hossa and Cambell/Keith for a huge part of their salary cap. They’ve got one great young center but after this year I think Savard is gone and they will have to depend on journeymen or young draftees in their rookie contracts to keep their centers stocked. If that team can sustain a winning tradition then my theory has a big hole.

by Dario on Dec 14, 2009 2:13 PM MST up reply actions  

isn’t Toews a center?

by thedoctor on Dec 14, 2009 2:27 PM MST up reply actions  

He's the one good centre.

I need a new sig, since i think I cursed ORLY by promoting him.

by Drakenlot on Dec 14, 2009 2:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Boston

 Resigned Savard for 7 years
they have Bergeron (24) and Krejci (23) up the middle with Savard.

They are building just like us, maybe a step ahead. I will have an aneurysm if we meet them in the Finals one year, but things look similar.

Avalanche 2009-2010: Ostensibly, the worst team in the league. Realistically, top of the NW division.

by c6hor8 on Dec 14, 2009 4:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Oops, I meant Sharp who they have playing at center instead of wing. But yeah, Boston is setting up for the long run and they look good.

by Dario on Dec 14, 2009 7:06 PM MST up reply actions  

This picture is ridiculous!

I refuse to believe that the Flame-outs are infinite times better than the Avs!

by Tommelot on Dec 15, 2009 3:46 AM MST reply actions  

Chuck Norris isn't worthy to carry Bruce Lee's jock.

Just sayin’

2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche - Time to grow a pair, boys!

by Hopfenkopf on Dec 15, 2009 10:27 AM MST up reply actions  

It's the same way in other sports

You build from the inside out.

Football – offensive and defensive line, and not quarterback, are the most important positions.

Basketball – Most teams that compete for titles these days have dominant centers or power forwards.

Baseball – Pitcher, catcher, shortstop, center field. That’s how you win.

It’s just like the body. When the inside works well, the outside works well. An arm could be perfectly healthy, but it is useless if the heart isn’t healthy.

"I intend to kick your ass today." - Denver Broncos legend Tom Jackson

by wtnelson on Dec 15, 2009 9:00 AM MST reply actions  

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