Pugilism
After having 7 fights in the last 3 games I think it was made clear to everyone that the Avs are a fighting team. They're actually 6th in the league in fighting majors with team fight leader Cody McLeod (12) 10th as far as individual fights leaders. The question is, has this contributed to their stunning success? Well, in the top ten teams with the most fights there are the Avalanche, the Sharks, the Flames and the Canucks who're are playoff teams but there are also the Ducks, the Flyers, the Lightning, the Blues, the Oilers and the Maple Leafs who are not. Whereas in the bottom ten, the Wild, the Hurricanes and the Red Wings are not in the playoffs while the Devils, the Black Hawks, the Sabres, the Capitals, the Islanders, the Coyotes and the Predators are in. So it's hard to say that fighting hurts or helps based on a fights to points ratio though not fighting probably has the edge (interestingly enough, all the East's divisional leaders (Devils, Sabres, Capitals) are in the bottom 10 while 2 of the West's (Sharks, Avalanche) are in the top 10). However, it seems that fighting is helping the Avalanche. After all, they are on a four game winning streak and have had seven fights in that time. So what's the secret?
First let's look at who they have fighting for them. I think that this Avalanche team has an almost perfect line up of fighters.To my mind there are four types of fighters in hockey and the Avs are one of the rare teams that have all four.
via cdn.nhl.com
Type 1 - Chris Stewart - Top Six Power Forward. Other examples: Jarome Iginla, David Backes
This is the rarest of the fighters. This player has to be good enough to be a top six forward but also be willing and able to drop the gloves and go toe to toe with guys who are only in the NHL because they know how to fight. This player is an excellent type of player to have. When you see a guy who has the talent level Chris Stewart or Jerome Iginla drop the gloves for the team, it's gotta be motivational. It's not an easy role to have either, because they have to know when to when to fight beyond just standing up for a teammate or trying to shift the momentum of the game. Nobody cares if David Koci is spends half the game in the box but every second that Stewart is in the box is a second that one of the Av's major scoring threats is off the ice. It's a pretty delicate balance and Iginla is the only current player I can think of that is a master of this. Stewart seems to be getting the hang of it as well. There was a time that Stewart seemed to be fighting to try and prove that he belonged on the team. He has proven it by stepping up and becoming a top six forward when the Avs desperatly needed one. Now he can focus on fighting for the team and not for himself.
Type 2 - Ryan Wilson - Physical NHL-Caliber Defensemen. Other examples: Craig Rivet, Robyn Regehr
Another great player to have. This player lays down hard checks and is willing to fight if an opponent takes exception to it. An important characteristic of these players is that they would be in the NHL with or without fighting. I'm not talking about Eric Godard or Brian McGrattan here. The Avs are lucky enough to have two of these types in Ryan Wilson and Adam Foote. I concentrate on Wilson because he is the fighter of the future. Nothing illistrates the type of player Wilson is better than the recent Devil's game. He hit Patrick Elias with a clean, hard check and knocked him out of the game. The Devil's had to respond and Wilson was willing to answer the bell. Whether through a big check, a big fight or a big goal, these types of players are invaluable to their team.
Type 3 - Cody McLeod - The Pest. Other Examples: Ian Laperriere, Daniel Carcillo
A familiar type of player to most of us. This a player is not the best player to have ever laced up a pair of skates and they are usually found on the third or fourth line. They can chip in with a goal here and there, some more than others. The distiguishing characteristic of these playersm however, is that they play their hearts out every night. They will do anything to win and anything for the team. Some are good guys (Ian Laperriere) and some are bad guys (Daniel Carcillo) but they are usually fan favorites because they come every night to play. Cody McLeod and Matt Hendricks fall into this category for the Avalanche. They can score big goals (McLeod's two agaist the Wings come to mind) but mostly they are there to motivate the bigger guns with a hard forecheck, a big fight or by pissing off the opponent's goaltender.
via i.cdn.turner.com
Type 4 - David Koci - The Enforcer. Other Examples: Colton Orr, George Parros
The type of player most associated with fighting. This is because with the other types, fighting is an aspect of their game. With enforcers, fighting is their game. Enforcers are players who are only in the NHL because of they're ability to fight. They can't score, they aren't that good defensively, hell, some of them can't even lay a good, clean body check. They are all about momenum shifting fights. Supposedly they are about protecting star players too but they're really no good for that since none of them have the talent to play on a line with top talent. Players like Sean Avery and Steve Ott are going to fuck with other teams' talent, enforcer or no. David Koci is the Avs' resident enforcer. He has earned a lot of the fan's good will with these last few games. Personally, I think he is redundant to a team with Stewart, McLeod, Hendricks, Foote and Wilson.
This is because what I am trying to prove with all of this is that in the modern NHL fighting is ALL about momentum. It is not about protecting players. It doesn't work. A player might step in to fight an opponent that took a shot at him or a teammate but is this not going to stop such behavior. Sean Avery will run Miika Kiprusoff as often as he runs Ryan Miller. And fighting isn't about being physical and tough to play against. Only the Ducks are in both the top ten in fights and the top ten in hits. Colorado is 26th overall in hits. What it is about is motivation and momentum. The Avs are better when they're fighting because it gets the team fired up. Some teams don't need fights to get them motivated. The Sabres get to watch Ryan Miller stand on his head all night. The Black Hawks have Marian Hossa, Patrick Kane and a host of other offensive wizards to fire them up. Right now, the Avalanche have a pretty good line up of fighters and I say, use them.
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fighting i would say is one of the reasons for our success this year for a few reasons:
1. i don’t really recall much of it last year
2. our future is really really young right now and i think were getting taken advantage of a bunch by older players. its a bonus that one of our young stars is willing to drop the gloves. i agree that fighting in these days of the instigator is more momentum shifting, but you also have to admit there is a little of the protection of the younger players thing going on. if o’reilly, duchene, yip, and stewart had 3 more years of service time i don’t think the fighting numbers would be as high.
an interesting thing to see would be what the score was when the fights occurred and who scored the next goal. i would hope the avs don’t need to start fights just to motivate themselves, it could be an issue later on in the season.
Enforcement! Motivation! Yawn!
Koci totters off the bench to his appointed spot on the ice. He finds McGratten waiting there, leaning on his stick like a tripod. While the rest of the players find their places they exchange pleasantries, asking about family (sisters and mothers mostly), personal grooming, and non-traditional gender roles. The linesman drops the puck. Our combatants do likewise with their sticks and gloves and clutch each other’s sweaters for balance. They throw a few punches out of habit then fall to the ice. The linesmen help them up and keep them from falling as they make their way to the sin bin for a nice 5 minute nap.
Yep, I’m motivated now.
I can see fights happening in the flow of the game where two guys who are both pushing the rules to the limit step across the line and go at it. That’s hockey. Pre-arranged bouts between “enforcers” in the first 3 minutes of a game are stupid. What is this, WWF? Get that man a folding chair, some steroids, and a Diva.
Games are worth only 2 points, DAMMIT!!
by Busted Twigg on Jan 21, 2010 7:14 AM MST reply actions 3 recs
THIS, THIS, 1,000,000 times THIS!
2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche - On the upside, there's only 33 more (regular season) games of Darcy Tucker left!
Koci
He is necessary in theory and less in practice. There needs to be someone on the bench who is gigantic and if someone makes a cheap shot on our stars he’ll go after him. Though we have other fighters, their game is physical and hit-laden, not fighting. They fight when something happens. Koci’s job is to be there in case and make sure other teams know that we have him. Without him, teams might be a little chippier.
Take someone like Jordin Tootoo. He’s a dirty little bitch of a player. He might put up a good fight with Wilson or Hendricks. He’d lose to McLeod and get killed by Koci. The idea is, whether it works or not, that Koci is there as a threat in case something bad happens. It is supposed to be a deterrent.
Those staged fights are more a way for both intra-division teams to flex their big muscles. Just to let the other team know that they have an enforcer there in case anything happens. Though it may not seem like a big deal to us, to a team, it’s just a way of barking.
Avalanche 2009-2010: Ostensibly, the worst team in the league. Realistically, top of the NW division.
He is necessary in theory and less in practice
To me, that is my whole problem with having a player like Koci. I get the argument that enforcers are there as a menacing threat to prevent the other team from taking liberties…I just don’t think that this is what happens in practice. Has Koci ever fought anybody who wasn’t the other teams enforcer? I don’t remember him taking on a real player who had taken a run at a skill guy, that job seems to be handled mostly by Stewart or McLeod. If I was a GM I would ask myself “would I ever want that guy to dress for a playoff game?” If the answer is no, and with very few exceptions it will be no, then don’t bother.
The idea..
is to have an enforcer type guy who can actually skate and maybe contribute somewhere. I don’t feel that Scott Parker was as useless as Koci but I don’t really remember.
by Avalanche318 on Jan 21, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
I was never a big fan of Parker, and I seem to remember him being either as bad on the ice as Koci, or possibly worse. Even though I wasn’t a fan of his, at least Parker could win a fight which is more than I can say for Koci.
You ever see Parker warmup?
The guy had crazy good hands and a hell of a shot. His problem was that he couldn’t skate to save his life. He had an awful lot of offensive potential, but it was just that – potential. Lucky for him, he was menacing and could kick ass.
I hate the Red Wings.
Kinda sad really, He could have been a decent player from the sounds of it(I’ve heard from a few people whe had good hands and offensive talent) instead he was reduced to playing 3 minutes every 5th game.
The Savage has spoken. Let it be done
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference"
R. Frost
Koci may not stop anyone from taking cheap shots on other players, but the one thing you will see him put an end to is all of the barking at the end of a shift. It is a rare sighting to see Koci still on the ice at the end of a shift, but if you get the chance to go to a game in person and you see Koci on the ice AND assuming he hasn’t already dropped the gloves, watch how quickly the opponent’s smaller guys skate away from him and head back to the bench. The usual scrum at the end of a shift breaks up rather quickly when Koci skates over to the action. I’ve seen this a few times this season, and it always makes for a good laugh. Some average-size hockey player will be yelling and screaming at an Avs player and Koci skates over and the yelling quickly stops, the player turns around, says nothing, and skates back to the bench. There is no doubt the smaller guys don’t want to mess with the bigger enforcer, so it puts an end to the pushing and shoving. Not a big deal, but it is fun to watch.
Good point. Thank you. Too bad with the instigator they can’t just pummel the crap out of annoying douche bags like Ott, Avery, ruutu, Phadouche, etc.
Get rid of the loser point
Beer: breakfast of champions
Aren't you forgetting
Marek Svatos
(his fight earlier this season may have been one of my favorites)
The New Improved Avalanche. Now with Real Coaches!
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jan 21, 2010 8:31 AM MST reply actions
I TOTALLY forgot about his fight. It is one of my favorites too. I never saw it coming!
Put It On Ice A blog focusing on the Colorado Avalanche, Syracuse Crunch, and Michigan Wolverines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvMPq-8FRys&feature=player_embedded# Look at 00:20. Only guy cheering Svatos- Stewart. He has some leadership in him too.
I think the rest of the bench was stunned into silence. “Is that…Svats???”
"I think you should win if you have a two-goal lead. When you stop playing and stop working hard, that's when the other team is going to be all over you the whole time." - Peter Forsberg
by NurseBeachie on Jan 22, 2010 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
What's a tucker?
Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.
AARIN MEIBIN IS TEH SUZZORZ, am I right?
by UZ on Jan 21, 2010 2:07 PM MST up reply actions
It’s a curse word. As in:
“MotherTucker!”
“That dirty little Tucker!”
2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche - On the upside, there's only 33 more (regular season) games of Darcy Tucker left!
“Oh go Tucker yourself”
The 2009-10 Avalanche: Have the wheels fallen off the bus yet?
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jan 21, 2010 8:23 PM MST up reply actions
Koci
I’m kind or mad that he is playing fighting better because I really wanted to keep calling him the human punching bag.
so............
Did you hear? Even The Baron fights now!!
I love this team!
Last nights fights were both during play and not staged, I personally really enjoyed it. And I’ve never seen The Baron so PISSED!!!
"You mess with our Hejduk and the Spirit of Lappy is coming!"-Jibbles
MHH- The Haiku capital of AvsNation.
I need to see a preview, because I think he actually scored on the play as well…
I love that these guys are not laying down and taking anything from anyone right now. They aren’t thugging it up, but they aren’t backing down from it either.
The 2009-10 Avalanche: Have the wheels fallen off the bus yet?
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jan 23, 2010 9:22 AM MST up reply actions
I heard that but didn’t see it so I’ll take your word on the goal.
Yeah, I’m loving that this team is willing to stand up for themselves and their goalie without being douchey about it. Makes for interesting games when Baron and Svats are even possibly gonna fight. Who’s next? SoS?
"You mess with our Hejduk and the Spirit of Lappy is coming!"-Jibbles
MHH- The Haiku capital of AvsNation.
We’ll I can’t be sure because there is no replay of it, the closest I’ve seen is from TSN’s highlights where it looks like Rinne reaches behind him after the whistle (and the start of Wolski’s fight). So it seems the puck was behind Rinne, but was it in the net? Not that it really matters at this point though…..
The 2009-10 Avalanche: Have the wheels fallen off the bus yet?
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jan 23, 2010 9:53 AM MST up reply actions
I think this team keeps throwing the rest of the league for a loop. In the beginning of the year, no one believed they had any talent. October hit and everyone looked around and said, “WTF??” Then no one believed they could sustain it. November came around and they started to say, “See!” but by December a collective “Doh!” was heard around the league. So opponents started getting physical, thinking this was the Avs of old that would stick to a speed and finesse game to get their Ws and the young guns would be thrown off by the bumps and bruises. But not this team. This team started hitting back. This team started fighting back. This team shoved that physicality right back in their faces. And now the league is back to saying, “what. the. fuck.” but it’s a resigned wtf cuz they don’t have an answer. I love it.
"I think you should win if you have a two-goal lead. When you stop playing and stop working hard, that's when the other team is going to be all over you the whole time." - Peter Forsberg
by NurseBeachie on Jan 23, 2010 8:02 PM MST up reply actions

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