Los Angeles vs Colorado
by zandar on Jul 20, 2010 12:47 PM MDT
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PrintIs it me or is Los Angeles Overrated? They seem to get a lot of press about how good they are and their future being bright while the Avs seem to get a mention here or there. Is Los Angeles really in better shape than Colorado? Outside of Kopitar, Brown, Bernier and their two studs on D... They just look like a team of aging vets or overrated players. Granted a core with those 5 (and Brayden on the way) is good but are they really more than a bubble playoff team?
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We'll see in the next two seasons.
I think next season they have to at least make the playoffs. Be a contender the season after that.
If they don’t, I think some of their players might start thinking about bailing on the Kings.
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
Member of the PFJ and the Spanish Inquisition.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
I think next season they have to at least make the playoffs. Be a contender the season after that.
If they don’t, I think some of their players might start thinking about bailing on theKingsAvalanche.
Considering all of our guys will be RFA or UFA in two years.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
The NHL wants/needs LA to be a good team. Colorado is small market. If they’re a great team, nobody but Colorado cares.
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
But I don't see how Colorado is a small market...
What is going on with them now is no different than what Detroit went through during the early Yzerman days (and probably post Lidstrom days). It’s a changing of the guard. Colorado was a huge draw, back in the day, at home and away. As they grow and win more they will once again be a major draw that will be filling the TV broadcasts and arenas across the country. Los Angeles is more in a win now need than Colorado is. Unless they can pull a few surprise players picking mid-draft, their core will be the 6 mentioned above plus whoever they can sign. Colorado’s core could end up being much much larger with such deep talent.
Denver itself is a small Market
But the outlining area can rival Pheonix in terms of population.
by pikeyrubbish on Jul 20, 2010 3:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Phoenix is not big. The Avalanche have never been that big of a draw outside of Colorado. Sad but true. Los Angeles is twice the size of Denver and Phoenix combined, and the biggest media hub on the planet. NYC is a distant second in that regard.
LA loves a winner. Period. And the Kings need a bonafide mega star. Kovalchuk isn’t even good enough. Nobody in LA will would even pay attention to any star player coming in not named Crosby or Ovechkin.
But that doesn’t change the fact that LA needs to be a winner if the NHL is ever going to compete with the NBA.
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
by BraxtanFILM on Jul 20, 2010 11:58 PM MDT up reply actions
LA needs to be a winner if the NHL is ever going to compete with the NBA.
Unfortunately, that may prove to be true, and I hate it.
When a sport relies on “big names in big cities winning big games” to prosper it starts to get into the realm of predictable outcomes if not the outright fixing of games.
(See NBA)
Or, salary caps dissolve so the big cities can afford to bring in the best players to buy themselves a championship.
(See New York Yankees)
Of course, that doesn’t always work.
(See New York Yankees)
Then teams like the Atlantas, Tampa Bays, and Phoenixes all become the farm club of the league. If those teams still exist.
Wasn’t Chicago one of the NHL’s farm clubs until Bill Wirtz died?
I’m hoping that the NHL "needing’ a team to win doesn’t happen.
It’s a stretch, but a league doesn’t necessarily need a “big city” to win to be successful.
(See NFL/Green Bay…Does anyone even know who or where Green Bay is? Wisconsin! Really?!)
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
Member of the PFJ and the Spanish Inquisition.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
by Luxury Yacht on Jul 21, 2010 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions
I’m not really sure just having successful teams in big cities will be the jackpot the NHL is looking for. It depends on the culture in the surrounding area or region of a team. Atlanta is certainly a small market for the NHL and even the NFL really, but the Braves do fantastic throughout the SE (more so in the 90s admittedly). And Detroit? They’re undoubtedly a big market city for hockey (maybe just b/c nobody wants to live there and hence fans travel so well), but they’re small market for just about everything else.
So, I agree:
a league doesn’t necessarily need a "big city" to win to be successful.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 21, 2010 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
The Braves do fine throughout the SE because the were the only show in town for a long time. The don’t have the best attendance figures though even when they’ve been consistently good.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
Yeah, that’s more or less what I meant. It’s been a long while since they’ve had great attendance and part of that is b/c they do rely so heavily on the whole SE region and not just Atlanta. Atlanta itself is a small market, but for baseball you could refer to it as a big market b/c it includes the whole region. The same thing can and does apply for the NHL in the right situations.
Also, I think the Braves do well in part b/c the NFL doesn’t — college football has that spot wrapped up tight.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 22, 2010 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions
Phoenix has been one of the fastest growing U.S. cities over the last decade or so and are now the fifth largest city in the states. Seems likely that was part of the NHL’s rationale in expanding there.
It’s really hard to define what “big market” or “small market” in terms of the the NHL as it depends on a lot more than just population. But if Denver and Phoenix aren’t “big market” in terms of population then neither are Boston, Philly, etc.
And fwiw, I’ve lived all over the states and saw Avs fans, gear, etc. at least as often if not more than any other NHL team with the exception of Detroit and Montreal.
Sure the NHL would want LA, NY, and Chicago all to do well, but I wouldn’t discount a team with a great history like the Avs as “nobody cares outside CO”.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 21, 2010 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Phoenix may be the fastest growing city, and New York is the biggest. But LA is still the biggest media hub. And if the two teams are equal, LA is going to get more coverage.
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by BraxtanFILM on Jul 21, 2010 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
LA has a true young #1 D in Doughty. The Avs have some nice defensive prospects in their system, but none that can touch Doughty’s potential.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 20, 2010 6:33 PM MDT reply actions
Doughty is the second coming of Bobby Orr. No team has anyone remotely close to his potential.
I spent more effort eating a pudding than Tyler Arnason skated last year.
I'd agree...
Except that Doughty and Orr don’t really have a similar game. Second coming of Ray Bourque mayyyybeeeeee
The Kings went through a true rebuild having making the playoffs for the first time since 2002. Chicago went through a long rebuild too and look at how receptive the league was to them making the playoffs a couple of years back. Even Pittsburgh who took their lumps for years gained fans because they “built” through the draft by plummeting in the standings for years. Everybody loves feel good stories, from zero’s to hero’s. The Avs won’t win over any fans for one bad year then middling in mediocrity.
Another longer thought
I don’t know how you all feel but there are several of us out here on the Best Coast who may feel the same way as I do. I always felt that the Avs had a great rivalry with the Kings without the nastiness of the Dead Things rivalry. Maybe it’s because of the preseason encounters, maybe its the relatively close proximity of the two cities. But I’m excited for the Kings to do well and for the Avs to do well also with a young core. Those playoff series in the early 2000’s were epic. Although Kings fans are huge bandwagon fans, they can get very passionate during the good times and Staples Center can be a great place to attend an Avs/Kings game with the place rocking.
So although I do feel that the Kings are stealing some of the spotlight from the Avalanche because I do see their make-up being very similar (a potentially solid D-core with hardworking forwards), having LA do well will be great for hockey.
A shorter thought
I always loved watching the Avs/Kings, Avs/Hawks, and Avs/Wings battles. Looks like they may be coming back.
How come it seams every big player that is a FA or on the trade block is always said to go to the Kings. It was like that for Kovalchuk, Hamuis, and Volchenkov, Gagne, and Whitney none of which happened. Everyone is saying they are goinging to have a big move and win which isn’t true. They are not that much better than the Avs so yes I think they are overrated, but I’m not saying the Avs are better by far. I put both of them at the same level. If you want to talk overrated teams look at Phoenix. They are talked about just as much as LA and they clearly aren’t as good as everyone says they are. It was the same with the Blue Jackets. Everyone think that they make the playoffs once and they are a lock to do it again. That might be true about the Avs, but they at least look like they are going to get better as a team which I don’t see from Phoenix.
They (Phoenix) are talked about just as much as LA and they clearly aren’t as good as everyone says they are.
Well, the league is trying to save them and keep them in Phoenix. The only way to do that is to make people care enough to buy tickets and get their butts in the seats. The only way to do that is to splatter news about the team everywhere.
It’s like when the fish in a restaurant is about to go bad the manager tells all their servers to “push the fish!”
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
Member of the PFJ and the Spanish Inquisition.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
by Luxury Yacht on Jul 20, 2010 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Also from my own history.
I worked restaurants for 10 years and am looking to get back into bartending.
Nice pick-up on the movie reference though!
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
Member of the PFJ and the Spanish Inquisition.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
by Luxury Yacht on Jul 20, 2010 9:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah I’ve been in a brewpub for twelve (fortunately on the beer side, but I’ve still seen it) and have been bartending for awhile. At least booze doesn’t really go bad.
MHH- A drinking site with a hockey problem
Detroit Sucks
The hard part about bartending is figuring out who is drunk and who is just stupid.
MHH- A drinking site with a hockey problem
Detroit Sucks
Sounds like dealing with my Marketing department.
Running-dog lackey counter-revolutionary malcontent, Not an expert.
by Busted Twigg on Jul 21, 2010 7:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Do you work for the Avs?
MHH: The Burgundy Army is on the March!
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jul 21, 2010 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
No, we actually have a Marketing department. Simply stating that they have a 2 drink minimum for anyone with an IQ above 80.
Running-dog lackey counter-revolutionary malcontent, Not an expert.
by Busted Twigg on Jul 21, 2010 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Actually I find that very simple. Just ask them to say anything with the letter "s" in it
And if they don’t have a lisp but still can’t say it, you win!
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by UZ on Jul 21, 2010 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Sounds like dealing withmythe Avs Marketing department.
Fixed
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
And Jibbled!
MHH: The Burgundy Army is on the March!
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jul 21, 2010 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Ok, I’ll compare the line-ups…
(1)Smyth Kopitar Williams
(2)Brown Stoll Simmonds
(3)Clune Handzus Parse
(4)Wesgarth Richardson Clifford
(5)Doughty Scuderi
(6)Johnson Greene
(7)Drewiske Harrold
(8)Quick
(9)Bernier/Ersberg
(1)Mueller Duchene Stewart
(2)Jones Statsny Hedjuk
(3)Galiardi O’Reilly Yip
(4)Koci Winnik Porter
(5)Hannan Quincey
(6)Liles Foote
(7)Cumiskey Wilson
(8)Anderson
(9)Budaj
(1)Brown > Mueller, Kopitar > Duchene, Williams < Stewart,
(2) Smyth > Jones, Stoll < Statsny, Simmonds < Hedjuk
(3) Clune = Galiardi, Handzus > O’Reilly, Parse < Yip
(4) Wesgarth > Koci, Richardson = Winnik, Clifford = Porter
(5) Doughty > Hannan, Scuderi < Quincey
(6) Johnson > Liles, Greene > Foote
(7) Drewiske < Cumiskey, Harrold = Wilson
(8) Quick < Anderson
(9) Bernier/Ersberg > Budaj
That’s without any rookies making the squad, the Kings look poised to have two to four rookies make the squad. Those rookies are: Schenn, Moller, Hickey, Teubert. The Avalanche are poised to have one or two rookie spots open. Those rookies are Shattenkirk, Cohen, Holos, or Chouinard. The Kings rookies are much more highly touted then those of the Avs, two of their four were top five picks. Just taking those squads as they are the Kings have two better players in my opinion. As far as rebuilding we’re right behind the Kings. Avs>Kings>Blackhawks>Caps>Pens. I’m not saying these are the teams in order based on how good they are, just who is the longest into the rebuild. It all seemed to start with the Penguins. Both the Avalanche and Kings have bright futures, but taking the scounting reports, the Kings have a higher ceiling. The Kings have been “lucky” enough to be bad for awhile and get those high picks to help them. Take it for what it’s worth since these are my two favorite teams, (Avs being number 1) but I think the Kings are the better team right now.
I think next year they could be interchangeable next year. Given that I think Mueller is a better first line forward than Jones, and that Mueller and Duchene had some chemistry. I could see Sacco doing it this way, Statsny is much much better defensively, so he would be better to go against the other teams top line anyway. It doesn’t really matter, at this point I think Kopitar is better than both players.
by Greendaygoal on Jul 21, 2010 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Not sure I agree with the Kopitar/Duchene, Smyth/Jones, Clune/Galiardi or Handzus/Radar comparisons. Otherwise I pretty much agree. It’s just too early to say with those four. This year should tell a lot.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 22, 2010 8:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Comparing rookie seasons:
Anze Kopitar (19yrs?) GP 72…20G…41A…61pts…-12…PPG 7…PPA 22…SHG 2….GWG 1
Matt Duchene (18yrs) GP 81…24G…31A…55tps…+1…PPG 10…PPA 11…SHG 1…GWG 2
Not sure I see much of a difference…That’s the problem trying to compare the Kings/Avs by individual player on player, there isn’t a big enough sample size for most of the Avs players.
MHH: The Burgundy Army is on the March!
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jul 22, 2010 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions
All four players are definitely younger in their careers so it is early. I was just showing that the Kings, at this point, are a little bit better than us. We have the potential to make up that difference quickly, I was just pointing it out. I was saying which players are better right now. I do think Kopitar is better right now, He was 17th in the league in points with always changing linemates, (most of which had no business on the first line). Smyth versus Jones is a harder one, comparing both in the left wing position isn’t really fair. That is Smyth’s natural position and obviously not Jones’. So comparing in the left wing and at this point I think I would have to give it to Smitty, probably not next year, but this year yes. Clune and Galiardi had comparable stats before the NHL and both have a couple years in the minors. They will both most likely never be anything more then third liners on a good team, I can see where you’re coming from, but Clune does a lot of little things well just like Gally. Handzus and Radar, at this point it wasn’t that hard for me. If you saw Zeus at the Olympics you know what a work-horse he is. They are very comparable players, I would say next year Radar takes it,, but this year I gotta give it to Zeus. He can play on every line and do everything well, just like Radar, he’s just bigger and as of right now, better.
by Greendaygoal on Jul 22, 2010 6:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Well fair enough
I like your rationale enough to just say I agree. Only other thing I’d point out is — if you were to switch Duchene and Stastny in our first and second line, would you still have Kopitar > Stastny and Stoll < Duchene ? IMO, then it’s to the Avs advantage on both lines.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions
It’s a lot harder to compare Statsny and Kopi, they are different in a lot of ways. Statsny is more defensive, whereas; Kopitar is more about the offense. They signed comparable contracts so I think that Giguere thought they were pretty comparable when he signed him to the contract. I still think that I would have to take Kopitar, he is a game-changer, unlike Statsny. Kopitar can take over games and has a hell of a shot. Statsny can make great plays but can’t take over a game, so yes Kopitar > Statsny. The next is much easier, Duchene > Stoll.
by Greendaygoal on Jul 23, 2010 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions
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