Mike's Crystal Ball of Understanding
by Mike @ MHH on Jul 23, 2010 6:00 AM MDT
in Avalanche News & Notes
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There has been a ton of talk around these parts regarding the Colorado Avalanche's rebuilding plan and what should or should not be done. We've talked about the plan in the context of this offseason, next season, next offseason and even out beyond the extents of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement. Contributors and members alike have speculated (sometimes wildly) on what does and doesn't need to happen in both the short and the long term. We've talked about drafts, free agents, trades, competition in the West, teams that seem to be getting better due to management, etc. We've done a lot of talking. Recently most of that talk has centered around a handful of free agents and one Russian winger in particular. Then MHH member Bringbackboone made this statement in a FanPost:
Maybe our team is centered around 2012, not only in regards to our Restricted Free Agents and free agency but creating significant trades with our amazing young defensive prospects. Just a long thought.
And that got me thinking...
What if the plan really is about positioning assets for a future date and not about building from within. What am I talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. About two or three years from now assuming a CBA is in place that isn't radically different than the current one in its form or function (i.e. "cost certainty", revenue sharing, moving cap, etc.), the Avalanche organization will have a bevy of coveted puck-moving defensemen. More importantly, these defensemen will still be on the cheaper end of the contracts. After not selling off anything for two years, the Avs should have a good grasp on what they do and do not have in the system. Now the wheeling and dealing begins. They start moving these assets and seeing real returns as I'm 100% sure that there will be other Blackhawks, Rangers, Capitols, etc. who have pressed themselves to the top of whatever cap is in place. Even if there wasn't, there are always middle-tier teams looking for depth as well that might be willing to move a Timonen etc. due to cost concerns. Now you've turned a stable of young talent into a viable contender by actually managing and not just shopping.
That's why I see Liles and possibly Hannan moved during this upcoming lack-luster season. I think management will use a non-playoff year to cull the rest of the chaff as far as "bad" contracts go and acquire prospects and picks with an eye toward 2012. Why would they do that? Because I think they'll be in a better position than they are now.
Wilson and Quincey will have "matured" for two more seasons but still be in the window of improvement for younger defensemen. Even if they never attain top pairing status, they are two pretty good lower pair guys, in my opinion. Hopefully the forward corp of SoS, Dutchie, Stewart, Radar, Mueller, and Jones will be intact and performing as we all hope they can. Hishon should be ready for his coming out party. Maybe Yip and Stoa will have made progress and are legit NHL top 6 guys, but even if they aren't, we already know that most of the other guys I listed are. If he proves he wasn't a one-off, Anderson could be in a position to be the first legit franchise goalie since Roy. Not to mention that the two goalies taken in this year's draft will likely be better than the depth the organization currently has in net.
I guess what I'm saying is I think the Avalanche are positioning themselves for something along these lines. I don't think they really believe that they can do it all through just in-house development. I don't think Sherman and Pierre are as stupid as some MHH members seem to think they are. I think they've proven they are pretty shrewd with the contracts that they've given out of late and are likely still negotiating with Stewie and Mueller. It was why they moved Smyth when they did. He didn't fit with what the team was doing. I think that's why they moved Wolski when he was in arguably his highest selling point since his rookie season. I think that's why they didn't go wading into the Kovolchuk sweepstakes. Why pay that guy for two years of service if all it will do is cause you to hit the reset button in two years when everybody's contact comes due? How do you trade prospects and picks for high-priced talent if that cap space is already eaten up by one player? The only way that Kovi would have been an Av (operating under the somewhat dubious presumption that he even considered Colorado as a destination) is with an extremely cap-friendly deal that somehow met his exhortation length and $$ demands. Mighty Lou took a swing and now the league and PA will likely be paying lawyers fees for the next few months AT LEAST. Or the contract will be reworked to be less palatable for the Devils. Either way, that isn't the criteria the Avs were looking for.
Poorly executed rebuilds litter the NHL landscape. Florida has done one every year for the last 10 years. Columbus and LA use the Nuke Disk every three or so seasons as well. Tampa rebuilds every season as well, only they do it one position at a time. The Rangers have been rebuilding since Jagr showed up and Phoenix tried to rebuild through coaching only during the last decade. The signature to all of those is that at some point somebody gets impatient and deviates from the plan. We're in year two of the plan and even though the team exceeded everybody's expectations last year, they stuck to the plan (the Wolski deal is proof of this, IMO). The draft this year was another step on the ladder. The quiet offseason is indicative of this long-term view as well. I'm just as upset that the Avs haven't appeared to do anything, but I gotta believe that it's because there's a good reason.
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The Avalanche have something special in their rookies. Other teams have tried to rebuild and use a ton of rookies (Edmonton comes to mind) and it failed miserably. Our team got lucky in the sense that these rookies rose to the challenge instead of succumbing to pressure. Which if they had, no one would have blamed them.
Last year was either a fluke or a portent of the future. If we are just so lucky that these rookies’ performances were not a fluke, I hope PL and GS run with them. 3 years of these kids all playing together at the ages of 18-26 and you have something incredibly incredibly special.
If they want to use the plethora of defensive prospects to fill in the holes in two years, that’s just fine by me.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Sorry if I’m stating something that has been mentioned down below, but since this was the first comment, and I haven’t read all the others, it reminded me of this: at the draft, GS made a point to say that guys with high compete levels are a focus for our scouts. I think Dutchie and Radar exemplify that to max.
Dutchie is just a beast because not only is he driven like it’s his last day on the ice, but he has the other talents that would allow him to just cruise on a “ho-hum” level (e.g. Kovie)… but he doesn’t. He wants to improve in any way he can.
Radar’s slightly different—at least based on his performance last year. There’s no doubt he was a highly rated prospect, but I think more than anything, he is the type of person (not player) who will always give 100%. Nothing will stop him from achieving his goals. He’s literally always the last one on the ice at practice, and we basically handed over our top PK unit to a kid who can’t order a drink for two and a half more years. That’s damned impressive.
When you can get a player like that on your team, you can be sure that he will commit to a plan like Sacco had. When you start getting multiple players like that on a team (from the sounds of it, people like Hison and Bournival), even though they may not have the skills of a top-10 player in the league, together they create a team that is ridiculously sound. That’s the type of team I’m excited for. Guys who work hard for each other. A team that gets me equally excited when the 3rd line takes the ice as does the 1st. I’m hoping that this is the kind of team the management wants to put on the ice.
/rant
They say the Avs look like smurfs when they wear these jerseys... I just don't see it.
by Guitarpick8120 on Jul 23, 2010 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Sacco/Sherman = Herb Brooks.
What's the difference between a duck?
What's the difference between a duck?
Nothing. One are both the same.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 23, 2010 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions
To be fair, I remembered it as “What’s the difference between a rabbit?” “Nothing. One are both the same.” So I thought I’d just improvise. No idea where I remember it from though, or if it was rabbit!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 23, 2010 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Haha
It’s fine, both are very difficult riddles that no one can get, and when you tell them they don’t understand the joke ;)
What's the difference between a duck?
I knew them as nonsense jokes. My favorite (and the only one other than the duck/rabbit one I can remember) was:
If your mother had $5 and your father was a firehydrant, how many pancakes would it take to shingle a doghouse, and why?
28 because footballs don’t have feathers.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 23, 2010 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great.
Now my brain hurts.
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
Member of the PFJ and the Spanish Inquisition.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
by Luxury Yacht on Jul 23, 2010 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Dang! Forgot the Warning: Reading The Following May Cause dizziness, drymouth, nausea, headache, acne, bad breath, body odor heading again.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 23, 2010 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions
There should have been a warning on this one for those of us that are inebriated.
Sandie
"We called him Clark Kent because away from the rink, he was just a nerd. Then he'd go into the Colorado dressing room and put on his Avs jersey, and all of a sudden he was Super Joe"- Theo Fleury
by Sandie Gauthier on Jul 25, 2010 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Insanity
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. The Rangers are insane. Atlanta is insane. many teams in this league are crazy to be repeating the same mistakes or not learning from mistakes of other teams. The Avs may have figured something out and are adjusting to be winners long term. They used to draft a lot of players, early in each draft, who had loads of skill but were missing something (Burki, Hensick, Williams, Wolski, etc.). Now they are trying something different and it looks to be working. One can only hope that if it doesn’t, the Avs will once again change their approach rather than repeat past mistakes or mistakes of other teams.
by zandar on Jul 23, 2010 4:18 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Nice Mike. I think this is my favorite post from you so far.
We all know PL is not afraid of making moves, so I echo your statement that there has to be a reason for this.
One big difference between other continuous rebuilding teams and ours is that we have PL, who knows from experience how (and when) to shift into the next gear from a rebuild.
Yes...
I gotta believe that it’s because there’s a good reason. -Mike @ MHH
…nice, Mike. This is the direction that should be the focus of all us fans, rather than questioning the Av’s decision making. This is exactly the idea I was trying to point out to everyone a little while back, when I was telling people I didn’t think it was a good idea to sign Kovalchuk. This sort of positive outlook writing is the kind we need to see more often…
There can still be a good reason that we disagree with. I don’t think it’s bad to question the Avs decision making.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 24, 2010 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Me either. I’m the charter member of the Fire Quenneville Club after all.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
Me? I pretty much just want this team to lose.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Critical Thinking? The capacity to reason?
Dunno.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Eternal pessimist?
There are two ways of being happy: We must either diminish our wants or augment our means - either may do - the result is the same and it is for each man to decide for himself and to do that which happens to be easier.
- Benjamin Franklin
Well, for one, I think it’s shameful for anyone of you to doubt the management of this fine organization. Afterall, they have the best intentions for all of us and humanity at heart, so shut up and accept the decisions being made.
by Stalin_KimJungIl on Jul 24, 2010 8:19 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
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After not selling off anything for two years, the Avs should have a good grasp on what they do and do not have in the system
This makes a lot of sense. If they don’t give these guys ice time, they will not be able to showcase their value, either as a player for the Avs, or as an asset in a trade. As Mike pointed out, they showed savvy in moving Wolski when he was at his highest value. Hopefully, that trend continues with smart timing on trades and moves.
The hardest part of a rebuild is trust and patience. Trust that the franchise is doing the right thing (and not just pinching pennies with no eye toward the future) and patience to allow the process to happen. However, this still doesn’t change my view that I am not going to be buying high priced tickets. Rebuild teams are great to watch on television; Stanley Cup contenders, in person.
2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche: Now with Playoff Goodness!
Agreed about the tickets. I see myself making two or three games max, with one of those being when the Penguins come to town.
If the Avs are serious about this rebuild, which they seem to be, then this season would be best spent missing the playoffs. Granted, the upcoming draft isn’t projected to be that great, but being out of the playoff picture at the trade deadline will allow us to move our last two albatrosses in Hannan and Liles (assuming they play well enough to garner interest) for future assets and make sure some of that young defensive talent gets their feet wet in the NHL.
2012 won’t be the great year we want it to be if we don’t convert our expiring contracts to picks. We also need to make sure our picks aren’t of the late-round variety.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I am not sure missing the playoffs is the best for the rebuild. The best for the rebuild is be amazing and have the team not need to change anything. That way you wake up and say “rebuild complete”.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
what is hard for me right now is the conflicting sentiments I have about the team. Part of me thinks, go ahead and suck really hard this year so the Avs can have a high draft pick. And then I think, well that would mean all the players really suck and this whole rebuild thing is gong to tank, and none of the players will be worth beans at trade time. This must be where alcohol helps.
2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche: Now with Playoff Goodness!
I will re-paste what the guy from Copper and Blue said
"You know what, fuck it. The Islanders, Tampa Bay, Atlanta, and even us are bad almost every year and try to get these young players to eventually get good again. Colorado has one fucking bad year. They pick the best player in the draft and now they are a playoff team again. How fucking lucky can they be."
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
It's not luck, it's good management.
The guy from Copper and Blue said
“How fucking lucky can they be.”
Having just one young guy play as well as, for example, Dutchie has would be luck. Having as many as the Avs do is good management at all levels.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 23, 2010 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions
But but you turned me into a newt.
There are two ways of being happy: We must either diminish our wants or augment our means - either may do - the result is the same and it is for each man to decide for himself and to do that which happens to be easier.
- Benjamin Franklin
But you were an “Expert” Newt.
MHH: The Burgundy Army is on the March!
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jul 23, 2010 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Then I can’t see how he might possibly gotten better.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Then I can’t see how he might possibly have gotten better.
FAIL
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
I did see the replay.
There are two ways of being happy: We must either diminish our wants or augment our means - either may do - the result is the same and it is for each man to decide for himself and to do that which happens to be easier.
- Benjamin Franklin
Re: Tanking it for Whomever
Mike Chen did some interesting stuff over at From the Rink last month analysing the top 5 draft picks in the NHL over the prior 20 years or so.
If a team is looking to rebuild through the draft, there is a very notable drop off even among the top 5 picks (all involved in the lottery). If the goal is a player at is at least a top 6 forward / top 4 defenseman / starting keeper, the chances of getting a player like that with the top pick overall in the last 20 years was 90%. That chance dropped to 70% with the 3rd overall pick and to 55% with the 5th overall pick.
With perpetually bottom-feeding teams the likes of FLA, ATL & NYI in the mix, even a concerted effort to suck for the future doesn’t guarantee a pick that had an even money chance of giving a team a player who could be viewed as a cornerstone around which to build a team. Not to mention the fact that by the time you build a team in this manner, they’re going to be playing in front of the 6 remaining season ticketholders in town. Pretty dangerous game to play…
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Personally, I think the draft should be completely overhauled to give the team with the most points that misses the playoffs the No. 1 pick overall (or at least the most lottery balls). That eliminates tanking and rewards the team that fought the hardest to make the playoffs but just missed. Teams on the bubble would almost always prefer the playoff money to the No. 1 pick, and with the parity in the league, most teams just need to get in to have a shot at a Cup. The No. 1 pick is something that should be earned though good play, not bad.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
But sometimes fighting for a spot isn’t enough and a team just lacks genuine talent. I could fight all I want but I still wouldn’t be a NHL player…It’s good in theory but I don’t see it working out.
What's the difference between a duck?
I’m assuming that the teams that finish dead last are lacking genuine talent as well, but the team that finished 9th in the West at least tried and put forth effort worthy of purchasing a ticket. By January of last year, Edmonton was playing out the string. If they weren’t rewarded for failure by being guaranteed the top pick, perhaps they may have actually worked up a sweat some games.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
This is probably skewed by the fact that teams which cant put together a decent roster finish lower. These teams are also incompetent at drafting and developing players so their picks dont turn out. Give decent teams the #8 or so and you probably get better results than a rotating crop of sucky teams drafting #3.
I agree. Though I would say, even if the team made the playoffs, it wouldn’t be such a bad thing to let any albatross contracts go if we can get something back. Make room for the young guys and give them a chance to see the playoffs when expectations are not high. I tend to think we kept Clark last year b/c we had a great shot at making the playoffs and the weren’t sure who we would have available b/c of injuries, etc. Even at the expense of our defensive play in the playoffs I think we should’ve unloaded Clark (Svatos, Tucker, etc. too if there was a market).
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Well said
I tend to agree with your prospective on what the Avs front office is up to and certainly hope you are right. However, from my own perspective as a fan, the off season is for needless speculation, analysis and bickering about what the team could do in terms of FAs, trades, etc. I would like to think that most of the folks around here are relatively OK with the approach you outlined above (or at least will be once it pays off), but that everyone just enjoys finding excuses to talk about the team. Least that’s how I think about it.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 8:55 AM MDT reply actions
Well said MC
There is a direct correlation between fan dedication and off season commentary. Perhaps not needless though: as someone wise once said “Ya got to feed the need.”
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 23, 2010 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Great post Mike. Any rebuilding process starts within, for a period of time, then opens up into trades and UFA acquisition. The first part of that process allows the Avs to really see the talent level of their players, and allows other teams to see the talent level of their players as the basis for trades. Credit also goes to the scouting staff for doing a very good job in the draft the last few years, to put us in a great position with a young, talented team.
PS- The Broncos just signed Elvis D, NFL sack leader last season. They took their time, while he remained a dedicated professional, and he was rewarded with the most guaranteed money in an NFL contract ever. The moral of that story is if the Broncos, whose camp opens within days, can be patient in signing a proven star, the Avs can be patient in signing potential stars (Stewart and Muller), and our camp opens in September.
Moral of my story
If the Avs ever signed a raging asshole like Tebow my head would likely explode b/c of conflicted loyalties.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions
MHH: The Burgundy Army is on the March!
I'm The Canary - but I'm not cute nor cuddly, and I don't sing.
by Americanario on Jul 23, 2010 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions
haha, Tebow hate. I mean, I get some of the hate as sour grapes and such, but he’s an asshole? Tebow is like, the least assholish football player ever. He’s probably helping old ladies with cats caught in trees right now, while curing cancer as a side project.
Oh Doc, did you happen to read Klis’s article about Tebow in the post today? Hang on, I’ll find the link – Here is its. Its pun-iness is painful, and (IMHO), in poor taste to boot. I don’t like the guy much, including his pious nature, but this article seems over the top to me.
Thanks Joe...
Pardon my French, but are you fucking kidding me?
Anytime anyone panders to the public using some sob story to push their own political and/or religious views gets a first class ticket to the asshole express him my book.
Needless to say, I’m not very fond of politicians…
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Did he push a product by participating in that parade? Did he make a statement saying by doing this I am asking you all to visit this website, make a donation, or anything else like that? (This is part rhetorical, and part me really not knowing)
Telling a story, or doing something as a person (lets say Tebow donated half of his earning to focus on the family, I would be fine, even happy and proud of that) is completely different than pushing an agenda.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Heh, alright. I don’t have an issue with Tebow’s public stance on issues, nor do I with Sopel’s publicizing of his support for certain communities. They’re community leaders, I’m actually glad they’re trying to better their world. I may not agree with them, and you seem to have an issue with their approach, but at least they’re trying. It’s the guys that don’t try and act like privileged assholes that bum me out (cough NBA cough).
The funny thing is how Tebow acts as a Rorschach. There’s been many other instances of players publicly supporting causes religious, political and otherwise, and well publicized ones at that…but Tebow is the one so many people focus on, including you…I wonder why…
Thinking on it… I believe most of my ire towards Tebow can be directly attributed to attending a rival school. Else I’d likely just find him to be a nuisance and care little else about him.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions
By all accounts Tebow is a great guy. I don’t have a problem with him at all.
I hate how people are ga-ga over him. he was a very good college player. But the Tebow love in the media and fans was borderline cult-like. The amount of adoration he got was ludicrous.
The fact that he is a good guy has caused people to overlook his faults as a QB. He had to completely reconstruct his throwing motion 3 weeks before the draft. That’s not a 1st round pick… but he is a good guy.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 23, 2010 6:13 PM MDT up reply actions
I find it hard to reconcile “Good Guy” and “Florida Gator”.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
by Mike @ MHH on Jul 24, 2010 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Probability. It had to happen at some point.
Are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 27, 2010 8:50 PM MDT up reply actions
It bloody well did not happen. Gators suck. All of them. Forever. No questions.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 28, 2010 8:00 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lemme go google that name and get back with you. I am full of hate today, so let’s just go with the default: I hate Jaden Schwartz.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Probably also needs a first class ticket.
Listen, everyone has a sob story. Your mother was killed by a drunk driver. Bummer. Your sister has cancer. Bummer. Everyones personal life is filled with strife. That’s just how it goes.
But these people go and pull at everyones heart strings to make them think that cause [insert cause here] is THE MOST UBER IMPORTANT THING THAT WILL CHANGE THE MOST PEOPLES LIVES!
Now, if the same idea was being pushed with facts and figures, I would be fine with that. “Did you know that [cause] currently affects more people in the world than [cause], [cause], or even [cause]?” is a much better presentation than, “Look, my [family member] has [cause]. It makes us sad. JUST LOOK AT HOW SAD WE ARE!”.
It all comes down to my frustrations over the American publics refusal to think for themselves. Instead of trying to win arguments anymore, everyone just reverts to emotion and sympathy. It’s the easy way out. Emotion and sympathy have their place in discussions, like here for example. We can wax and wane all day about how we should do this or do that. But at the end of the day, do you really want to make a business decision because of sympathy? I don’t, and I feel like that puts me in a shrinking minority.
/end rant
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Also – I am heartless and my wife says I think like a robot, so take my opinions with that in mind :D
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
It all comes down to my frustrations over the American publics refusal to think for themselves. Instead of trying to win arguments anymore, everyone just reverts to emotion and sympathy. It’s the easy way out. Emotion and sympathy have their place in discussions, like here for example. We can wax and wane all day about how we should do this or do that. But at the end of the day, do you really want to make a business decision because of sympathy? I don’t, and I feel like that puts me in a shrinking minority.
I’m in your minority.
MHH- A drinking site with a hockey problem
Detroit Sucks
Why do you hate America?
I mean, bread, circuses, what more could a population want?
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
I went to Florida State as an undergraduate and lived in Tallahassee during most of the UF Tebow years if that explains anything for you. Some of the hate is not Tebow’s fault but the media’s, some of it is his cockiness / general demeanor, and the rest is shear, blind irrational hatred. This is why I like sports, b/c I can feel that way without the guilty conscience.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions
Sports aside...
his pushing the “Christian way” thing annoys me to no end — I don’t “hate” him for it, but it does annoy me immensely. Again, a big part of that is the media coverage, but he does take complete advantage of it and self aggrandizes in the process. Of course then the media turns around and praises him for his humility.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
Sports aside...
his pushing the “Christian way” thing annoys me to no end — I don’t “hate” him for it, but it does annoy me immensely. Again, a big part of that is the media coverage, but he does take complete advantage of it and self aggrandizes in the process. Of course then the media turns around and praises him for his humility.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I put self-righteous holier-than-thou agenda pushers into the “asshole” category.
The 09/10 Colorado Rockies: Starring Johnny Herrera as THE ANSWER
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by UZ on Jul 24, 2010 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions
this makes a lot of sense but.....
I find it hard to believe that this team, or Kroenke is devoted to any sort of plan involving developing young players when they cancel development camp due to budgeting (via adater). I understand not signing anyone, but who knows what kind of detriment canceling development camp will have on these young guys that they are supposedly relying on….
on a separate note, the edmonton journal says the avs are interested in cogliano (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Former+Oilers+winger+Robert+Nilsson+heads+Russia/3311101/story.html)... that could be a nice addition but a center is the last thing we need. anyone know if he’s played any wing?
by Cole D Hamilton on Jul 23, 2010 9:29 AM MDT reply actions
I understood that they had a rookie camp but it was closed to the public. Did anyone else hear anything about this?
Someone mentioned on here that its a classroom-type rookie camp, not an on-ice camp. I don’t know where that info may have come from. Hell, it may have even been said in utter sarcasm, and my meter was down that day.
Thanks Joe...
Jori made mention of it on her site, but it didn’t seem as though she was entirely certain either.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
I wouldn’t at all mind having Cogliano for maybe a 3rd. He could thrive in a better system. I could also see him shifting to wing…he definitely has the speed and he’s a scorer that could play next to either Stastny or Duchene.
Agreed
and I’d certainly do it for a 3rd. Not sure it’d be enough though?
by MalachiConstant on Jul 23, 2010 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions
3rd and a conditional 2nd or 4th. (second if he’s awesome for the avs, forth if he’s not)
Are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 27, 2010 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions
yeah, a 3rd is about right.
the funniest thing is the thread discussing this at HF. Edm fans claim he’s worth at least Mueller or Stewart, and they toss in Souray for free. it’s hilarious.
Check Spector. Some guy is claiming we would ship Davy Jones + a 3rd for Cogliano.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Haha if they tossed in Souray it would look like
Souray-Cogliano-7th
for a 5th—they’d probably have to lower the price for Souray in there.
dater confirmed the avs interest in cogliano
by Cole D Hamilton on Jul 23, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
It could be a prospect or pick trade for some depth. I mean Sacco does have a way of getting under-achievers to play well.
and some asshole is trying to trade away Wilson now.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Where?
I’d trade a puck moving defenseman for him, Cumiskey and a 5th maybe.
What's the difference between a duck?
Why the interest in Cogliano? He’s not a bad player, but I assumed that the Avs wouldn’t really go after anyone in their rebuild attempt… Certainly not trading away our young assets. I suppose the GM has a duty to see what the market price is, and see if there was some way to make it work. Edmonton isn’t in any cap trouble, really, and I think our kids are just about as good as he is.
Thanks Joe...
skilled, versatile, fast, misused in his current home…I really think he could fit well here. His situation reminds you of Mueller quite a bit — great rookie year, strange regression and chemistry issues resulting in a overly reduced role. Obviously quite different players, but you know…
I’d be thrilled if they made a good (read: no key assets going the other way) trade for him. He’s not worth a lot, but he’s a decent gamble.
A top puck-moving defensive prospect would be great since we have a glut and Edmonton sure doesn’t need any more forward prospects.
What's the difference between a duck?
Haha I just posted that on hfboards. Just keep Shatty and Elliott out and I’m happy. Barrie has boom or bust potential, but the Avs aren’t going to be able to develop him properly with our overcrowded prospect corps.
What's the difference between a duck?
great minds...
I would like to put Gaunce on the keep list as well, but yeah. Holos, Cohen, Barrie…any of those guys.
anyone would regress playing in edmonton
by Cole D Hamilton on Jul 23, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Bullshit.
What's the difference between a duck?
but I can’t fathom either of them being moved to Edmonton as part of a trade just for Cogliano
per Dater.
Try Stewart straight up for Gagner (wich wouldn’t happen)
What's the difference between a duck?
Ok now this kid is trying to claim Cogliano is the fastest person the in NHL. Who suggest this site. I want to stab my eyes out.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Yea that’s ridiculous. A former 25th overall on the decline (18 G-18 G-10G) for a former 16th who just led a playoff team in scoring? Stupid Oilers. And no one would even pick up Souray on waivers. If we had wanted him, we could have gotten him for free. Now a trade for Souray is like Souray and a 5th for a 7th. They’d have to pay us.
What's the difference between a duck?
Nvm
Found it.
What's the difference between a duck?
Haha.
I went for Liles + Jones for Whitney + Gagner as a joke. He’s having a fit. He says Liles + Jones + Stastny for Whitney + Gagner is even…
What's the difference between a duck?
Have they had a player in the past 10 years that is as good as Stastny OR Duchene?
Smyth?
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Pronger is a future hall of famer, so I guess he could be listed as default.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
For one playoff run
And Smyth isn’t as good as Stastny, but dammit he tries!
What's the difference between a duck?
Well now I am pissed off
The last player they had even close to a point per game was Hemsky. 443 games, 353 points.
In the past 15 years, Smyth was very good. Doug Weight was basically a point per game players. And well Pronger. That is including trades. In that time, we have had
Sakic, Forsberg, Ozolinsh, Bourque, Blake, Hejduk, Drury, Stastny, and Duchene. Oh yeah and PATRICK ROY.
But they have Gagner.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
How about drafted? I mean Hall may be there at some point. It seems likely. But before that? Smyth? Gagner?
Lets look at their beloved Gagner:
223 games 131 points.
Stastny:
274 games 264 points
Yeah, THEY’RE THE FUCKING SAME
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Hey hey cheer up
What's the difference between a duck?
The Avs did have an orientation camp a couple of weeks ago.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 23, 2010 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Is there any place I could find a list of our Head Scouts and Assistant Scouts over the past 10 years?
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Try the unemployment rolls.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
You son of a bitch. I was reading that hoping for some semblance of seriousness.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
Serious? From me? I’m just here for the May jokes.
Is your Maydar going off? NTTAWWT
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
by Dixomatic on Jul 23, 2010 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Avs website will have a current list of scouts, but if you want scouts from the last 10 years, better dig out some Avs media guides.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 23, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Damn, I just wondered if the scouts who chose Jones and Stastny were the same who chose Galiardi, Duchene, etc.
My real reason was determining whether the GM, either Giguere or Sherman, is repsonsible for a great group of picks over the years, or our scouting system.
Jimmy Howard invented the Stanley Cup.
I think I’d give more credit to the chief/head scout then either Giggy or Sherman. Both of these guys were former accountants and not hockey talent evaluators. I think someone like Billington would have a greater influence.
You really got the feeling in this most recent draft that Pracey was running the show.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 23, 2010 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Don’t forget that PL was a player agent. The most successful agents go out and find the players who are unrecognized or unloved or not yet loved as they should be. That takes an eye for talent.
Running-dog lackey counter-revolutionary malcontent, Not an expert.
by Busted Twigg on Jul 25, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Great Post…
thanks for talking me off the ledge.
I’m kidding, kinda
AKA Stastnystooth on twitter... Yeah that's me, his tooth.
by Ben from Portland on Jul 23, 2010 10:09 AM MDT reply actions
In other news
The Broncos sign Dummerville to an Extension!!! oh wait this is talk about what they AVs are doing…. Can we please sign our RFAs
Let the new season begin already!!!
Well written and insightful (inciteful? just kidding).
My first reaction however is that the “average” Colorado hockey fan (from the early 2000’s) has forgotten about this team. The good news is that these fans will have no problem jumping back on the bandwagon if the team starts winning again. In the meantime these fans will piss and moan about how terrible we are and we’ll have to hear about how bad of a hockey market we are (which I guess will kind of be true) and everyone will wonder why we are even bothering to have a team. Because really, why do we have a team if we plan to go on a five year suck-a-thon?
We do have to trust the powers that be that there will be a right time to change the phases in the plan. I’m worried that the only plan that exists right now is to save money until the new CBA, under the guise of “rebuilding”.
I mentioned something like this just after the draft -
I am also not at all frustrated with the Avs drafting players that don’t have ‘size’. I know thats a big deal in today’s NHL, but I tend to look at these guys as partly currency rather than only Avs players. If we have the best smallish, puck moving, speedy defensemen, we become the dealer for those guys. If we have a knack for drafting crafty, smart, dedicated 2-3rd line centers, we become the go-to team to acquire them. Not all of our players have to go become Avs. They can be traded as required to fill the teams needs. The players develop under coaches that have worked with similar prospects and help them become the best players they can be, and the Avs get a stock of attractive prospects to deal if necessary.
I posted that up at the end of draft day 2, but at the time I hadn’t really thought it all the way through. You have, it seems. Thanks for reminding us.
I’m still not worried about the team. We have to have time to grow and learn about our weaknesses, identify player talents, and develop all of our kiddies. Sure we may regress this year [and lets face it, we all said the same thing 13 months ago], but it won’t matter in two years. Lets just hope there are some fans left to cheer on our soon-to-be-amazing team.
Thanks Joe...
Sounds like we had the same idea but I don’t remember seeing your post. Sorry if I stole your idea. I have just read a lot of articles about how other teams are looking for offensive minded defensemen and how those d-men are worth more, whether in contracts or in trades. I also thought of how we are lacking in physical d-men. When there are 2 needs made known, it’s easy to create some trades right? Seems like Mike was able to put all the pieces together and make the community happy, for this Friday at least.
by Bringbackboone on Jul 24, 2010 2:32 AM MDT up reply actions
I haven’t been around here for a while, due to increasing work demands, but I’ve personally loved the Greg Sherman era, I loved every minute of last season, and am not getting antsy for a bunch of changes. I’ve thought that this summer has been great evidence of a clear head in an otherwise ridiculous league atmosphere.
Training camp is just a month and a half away.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I will be there for a day of rookie camp at least, with my pocket video camera this time! I will do some write-ups, either here or if Jibble stills wants them over there.
Any requests on what to focus on? I hope to catch some good game action at least
If he’s there, I’d like to hear what you think of Malone.
Otherwise, in addition to the defense, I’d like to see what you think of whatever forward depth might be in the system.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Unlikely Malone would be there. As a NCAA player, he’d have to pay his own way.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 23, 2010 8:44 PM MDT up reply actions
And Sept. will go by fast while I am distracted by the college football.
Fushigi - It floats, it levitates, it will confuse the senses with it's mind-blowing movements.
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 23, 2010 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions
not me, I’m a CSU fan so after the superbowl against the hated, hippie CU team, I’m ready for hockey.
Are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 27, 2010 9:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Please don’t start this again :/ I don’t wanna pull out my “5 Nobel Laureates” and “1 NCAA Championship” cards again.
Oh wait, I just did…
That being said, Coach Hawkins sucks and I’m tired of those damned hipsters giving my school a bad name.
What's the difference between a duck?
cough University of Chicago — 85 nobel laureates and 2 national titles (1905 & 1913) cough
Sorry, I had something in my throat there. What were we talking about again?
by MalachiConstant on Jul 28, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Ohio State
4 nobel laureates, 13 National Championships
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 28, 2010 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions
They have 7 for football right? B/c if we’re counting all NCAA titles and 13 is all “the OSU” can muster I can continue my completely unnecessary gloating.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 28, 2010 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions
13 football. I used this list as reference, but I have a feeling some of those early years ones (like ’32) are disputed because there were like 7 places awarding national champions.
I think it’s 7 AP ones though.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 28, 2010 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Ah. I was using wikipedia and we all know if it’s on wikipedia it’s as good as tattooed on history.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 28, 2010 8:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Hey mine is wikipedia too
Are you telling me Wikipedia may have conflicting information. That’s unpossible.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 28, 2010 9:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Inconceivable
Yeah, I was using the team page
by MalachiConstant on Jul 29, 2010 7:38 AM MDT up reply actions
I like that list. The highly superior University of Michigan has 22. In your face!
Fushigi - It floats, it levitates, it will confuse the senses with it's mind-blowing movements.
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 28, 2010 10:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Nothing good has ever come out of michigan.
example: Detroit Red WIngs.
Are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 29, 2010 8:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Go Maroons!
BTW – WTF is a Maroon in the first place? Never did find out.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Just the color I think. I’m pretty sure the Pheonix is the actual mascot… or maybe those gargoyles. Hell, beats me.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 29, 2010 7:42 AM MDT up reply actions
One of my favorite Vonnegut quotes:
A great American university [The UofChicago] gives up football in the name of sanity. It turns its vacant stadium into a bomb factory. So much for sanity.
by MalachiConstant on Jul 29, 2010 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions
don’t forget 10000 dirty hippies you’ve produced. My ire has died down over the years, both these teams are down, after this game the year won’t matter too much for either of them.
Are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 29, 2010 8:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Go Rams!
Your 2010-2011 Colorado Avalanche: Reaching Up to the Cap Floor
by Bob in Boulder on Jul 28, 2010 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions
A rammie in boulder, it must be lonely.
Are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 29, 2010 8:18 AM MDT up reply actions
I really hope ...
…that this is what is going on and Avs’ management really chose to act like this and not that their hands are tied, because uncle Stan has closed his wallet firmly.
Great post, One thing, though:
I don’t think this will be a lack-luster season. I look forward to plenty of luster.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
agreed, this team could still make the playoffs next year, i mean, we haven’t gotten worse this summer
by Cole D Hamilton on Jul 24, 2010 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions
And that Duchene kid…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 25, 2010 11:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Note how much bigger Dutchy is there than he was last summer. He must have put on 15-20lbs.!
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
He’s a dork? Where do I sign up?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 25, 2010 11:05 PM MDT up reply actions
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