Maybe It's All About the $?
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 6:00 AM MDT
in Avalanche News & Notes
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NHL free agency is entering day number five today. The Colorado Avalanche have re-signed a couple of players and added a few good players for their AHL club. But GM Greg Sherman has yet to sign one free agent for his big league club. There are still some significant names on the market other than Ilya Kovalchuk, but it is sounding more and more like potential useful additions like Willie Mitchell, Andy Sutton, Lee Stempniak or Raffi Torres will be passed by.
The party line is that the Avalanche are committed to building from within and want to make sure the team has cap space down the road to make sure the team can keep the core nucleus intact. But, could there be more to it than that? The skeptics out there - and I may be one of them - wonder if there might be something else at work here. Could this be about money?
Just over a year ago, the Avalanche jettisoned Ryan Smyth and his $6 million salary to the Los Angeles Kings for Kyle Quincey and Tom Preissing and there were rumors that the Avalanche were trying to find takers for some of their other big contracts (Scott Hannan, for one). The team was coming off a money-losing season (maybe $10 million, says Adrian Dater) and there have been cutbacks behind the scenes. There were also claims that the failed Patrick Roy negotiations ultimately broke down over money. The Avalanche were very quiet on the free agent front last summer, signing "just" Craig Anderson and David Koci to cap-friendly deals. Ultimately, the Anderson signing was one of the best of the summer, but his $1.8 million deal is certainly wasn't a bank-breaker. And let's not forget that the couldn't pony up $1.2 million per year to retain the services of Ian Laperriere. I know I can't.
Last season, the Avalanche were surprising playoff contenders. Odd, then, that the Avs would trade Wojtek Wolski for Peter Mueller and Kevin Porter at the deadline, yes? At the time, Wolski had more than doubled Mueller's scoring output (47 points to 17). While it worked out wonderfully for both teams, it was speculated here that Wolski was moved because he would be commanding close to $4 million in salary this summer. We can question whether Wolski is worth that sort of money, but the bottom line is that the Colorado Avalanche are far enough under the salary cap that Wolski's contract would not have been an issue. It really boiled down to whether they wanted to pay him that kind of money, and the clear answer was that they did not.
And now we have the curious Tom Preissing situation. Preissing didn't play well for the Avalanche last year, certainly not well enough to warrant his $2.75 million price tag. But Preissing could have been safely tucked in Cleveland for the final year of his deal, as players in the AHL do not count against the salary cap. Instead, the Avalanche have reportedly bought out Preissing, a move that saves them about $900,000 in cash. Perhaps more significantly, the move adds that same amount in cap space this year and next year. The grassy knoll experts out there are wondering if the team is making this move solely to add enough dead cap space to get to the cap floor without increasing payroll. Sure, you can make an argument that buying out Preissing frees up playing time in Lake Erie for the bevy of young defensive prospects the Avs have in the system. You can also make an argument that Preissing's veteran presence would benefit those same players and he did score 31 points in 49 games to lead all Monsters defensemen last year.
On its own, the Preissing buyout would be a curious move - one that doesn't make sense capwise, but could be justified in other ways. When combined with all of the other cost-conscious moves above, the Avs' woeful attendance in recent years and, oh by the way, the team's uncertain ownership situation, it is troublesome. It makes you wonder just how important this young nucleus really is to them. Are the young guns valued for their future potential...or for their still-favorable cap numbers? Is Sherman really making sure there's money to pay Duchene and Stewart and O'Reilly in a few years...or will they eventually be low-balled out of town like Andrew Brunette, Ian Laperriere and, yes-I'll-go-there, Jose Theodore? A week ago, that thought was preposterous. Today, not so much. A week ago, we were all thinking about how great it would be to bring in someone like Ilya Kovalchuk. Today, I'm a little concerned we may already have a Kovalchuk on our roster - a star player who is allowed to depart to early because of money.
I really hope I'm wrong.
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Good... bad... I'm the guy with the gun.
Screw the Wings.
by i2strange97 on Jul 5, 2010 6:32 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
The opposite side of this is that they did go out and sign Smyth and Hannan. They did trade for Theo. They did think that Tucker (and this is painful to say) was an upgrade over an aging Bruno. It’s hard to say that they are “for sure” being stingy a-holes. I just don’t know.
Good... bad... I'm the guy with the gun.
Screw the Wings.
Hard to know, really. But right now we have a tidal wave of youthful defensemen coming into the pro-level, following upon the unexpected tidal wave of forwards (Duchene and O’Reilly both making the team at 18, Yip and TJ playing so well, etc.) that carried us to the playoffs. The plan is to let the kids play, and since we need to see these guys in camp it is not easy for the organization to know what our needs really are. Final pieces can be found as the season begins, if we even need them.
Preissing’s buyout also frees a up a contract, the limit is 50 contracts in the organization, iirc.
good point on the contract limit, but the Avs aren’t really in much trouble there
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 7:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Sure it’s about money. We are still rebuilding and we are not expecting to win several rounds in the playoffs. Because of that, we aren’t expecting to make a lot of extra cash from the playoffs. I know, a lot of people say the answer is to sign Kovi who will apparently make us an instant Stanley Cup competitor (much like he’s done for Atlanta). However, it’s a risky shortcut that may or may not work. What is much more likely to work is to slowly continue to rebuild from within, which pretty much goes along with not spending money.
If we are building from within, tell me who our next 40 goal scorer is, and why we cant spend the money now, Chicago got a cup with some ufa signings and a good core of youth, but their problem now is that the ufa signings were too expensive, however 1 player doesnt ruin things, its the several bad contracts that Tallon gave out that is the issue. I just dont see who in our “system” is going to provide the goals needed to be a contender in the future..
Friend, our team was 6th in scoring in the NHL last year despite all the injuries and the infusion of rookies in the lineup. As our young dmen come into the NHL our scoring will increase because we will have more scoring from the blueline and a better transition game. Additionally, balanced scoring creates more problems from the other teams defense, and having scorers with different styles (snipers, net crashers, speed demons, blue line howitzers, and so forth) allow a team to win in different types of playoff games/series.
I am happy with the prospect of Yip – O’Reilly – Jones as a third line that can compare to many second lines in the league. And keeping this type of line balance requires that we have salary money to spread around the team.
Finally, I’d rather have another Drury than Kovy. In his time with the Avs (four seasons?) Drury scored 12 playoff game-winning goals, the NHL record is Gretzky’s 24. A clutch playoff scorer (eg. Joe Sakic) is far more valuable when the games really count.
by niwotsblessing on Jul 5, 2010 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions
I guess my issue is that that was one season where we surprised a lot of teams, they wont be the second time around, and there will more than likely be some players that dont pan out as they did a season ago. See St.Louis of 08 and St. Louis of 09 for examples..
I think we need tweaks to improve, as sticking with what worked last year isnt neccesarily a good option for this season.
I dont require Kovie for that, but I think scoring is needed, and ideally from a new LW. Galiardi as a first line winger doesnt inspire full confidence for a season. If Im wrong, that’s great and the team continues to grow, but if Im not there will be a great loss of fan confidence and a further hit to gate reciept. Can the team survive many more seasons of mediocrity in Denver?
St. Louis put their faith in Chris Mason who had a pretty bad year and due to injuries in 08 (really big ones), St. Louis had a lot of chemistry problems. Top that off they had some problems with Tkachuk and kariya aging and terrible coaching, there’s your reasons why they missed the playoffs. Not because other teams were ready but because they weren’t ready for other teams.
How could their memory be so short? You’d think from the days of signing Sakic, Blake, Fosberg, Roy, etc to huge contracts this organization as much as any would understand that you have to spend some money on star players to fill the seats, win some playoff games, and make some serious money. I don’t remember this team losing money back when they were winning division titles, president’s trophies, and cups (hard to believe it’s now 10-15 years ago).
The difference is, we were not rebuilding during those times. If we ever want to see times like those again, we need to continue the rebuild.
We keep saying we need to rebuild, as if drafting and building from within is some sort of guarantee.
It’s not. There’s a lot of never-beens the last 10 years who have tried to build from within.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 5, 2010 5:14 PM MDT up reply actions
I dont mind the organization trying to save money whilst they can on players.
What I do mind is being fed the line of “Sticking to the plan”. If they are saving, fine, but be honest with the fans, set ticket prices lower to attract more spectators, spend a little on advertising which could lead to earning more in gate reciepts…
Intriguing idea DDC
But I can’t buy it. Most sports teams lose money every year. It’s a tax write-off. I can’t say for baseball or basketball, but certainly football (sorry, soccer), even your Manchester Uniteds and Arsenals of the world struggle to break even, let alone the “lesser teams” like Man City, West Ham or Portsmouth.
Also, I can’t believe that a team that is approx $10 mil below the cap is being so stingy. They have to spend money and Stan Kroenke is no idiot. He knows that he has a minimum spend on the Avs so penny-pinching doesn’t seem to add up.
Having said that, who knows? I really don’t get the logic of Preissing’s buyout. There is still a cap hit (albeit reduced) but no player to show for it and as someone else said, he has played well for LEM and someone has to hold the fort for all the callups the Avs will have next season.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
Oh and also
If the Avs made a $10 mil loss last season, surely the letting go of Clark, Tucker and Salei on their own will make up that loss :)
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
DDC—With all due respect, I think you’re reading into things a little much. Remember that back in the glory days, the Avs hardly dipped into the free agent pool. Personally, I don’t think there are any free agents on the market that are worth breaking the bank for. A lot of guys got overpaid on Thursday, and I don’t think the Avs want to make any panicky signings when they have a young core that will continue to develop. As for Kovalchuk, it sounds like he wants an INSANE amount of $$. I don’t care how much cap space the Avs have at the moment, do you really want to rest a huge chunk of the future of the franchise on a winger who, though talented, has not shown he can carry a franchise anywhere? This is not Crosby or Ovechkin we are talking about.
A lot of guys got overpaid on Thursday
Ain’t that the truth!
If Kovie gets $10 mil per year, we should have paid Sakic $15 mil per year (for longevity) and Peter Forsberg $12 mil
Kovy – GP – 621 // G – 338 // A – 334 // +/- 75 (1.08 ppg) 242 (1.25 ppg)
Foppa – GP – 706 // G – 249 // A – 636 // +/
Super Joe – GP – 1,378 // G – 625 // A – 1,016 // +/- 30 (1.19 ppg)
I haven’t included playoff stats, because Kovy has hardly any. I know that people will say that half of Kovy’s stats are goals, whereas Foppas and Sakic’s aren’t, but a certain amount of that is due to the fact that the gameplan for Atlanta was “pass to Kovy” – there wasn’t anyone else involved.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
Good article DD. I’ll make my final leap to a pessimist if the Avs do nothing at the trade deadline.
I think KSE as a whole is circling the wagons and waiting out a financial transition for new ownership structures.
It’s funny, fans here keep saying the Avs are brilliant tacticians because they want to build from within and they realize that we can’t make a long cup run. I say that’s bullshit. Pierre Lacriox fired Granato and said the same thing he’s said at least a 100 times, the Avalanche goal is to win the cup every year, period. That’s one of the big reasons I’m a fan. I don’t want to root for a team that’s going to rebuild. That’s the lament of losers.
by Dario on Jul 5, 2010 9:28 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
So you think we have a good chance to win the cup next year, as long as we go crazy and spend, spend and trade?
We’re talking about one, maybe two guys here. We’re not talking about going after about 5 or 6 free agents like the rangers have done in the past. We know that doesn’t always get you there. But think of the potential boost a guy like Kovie could give the team? A veteran superstar sniper that is very young, and will continue to put up numbers during the time that you have him. What is so bad about that? People make the argument against signing free agents assuming that all of us want to spend spend spend spend spend spend and spend. Screw the guys we’re developing, they won’t do well anyways. That is not what we’re suggesting at all, at least I’m not. But think, when we were winning cups, were we this stagnant? I’ll throw out a few names, Patrick Roy, Theo Fleury, Ray Borque, Rob Blake. All were acquired at the trading deadline, and all, except for fleury, helped us win cups. I don’t think our chance of winning the cup next year is any better than it was this year if all we do is stick with the same guys and just hope they do better. My humble opinion.
I’m OK with signing guys for the 3rd or 4th line. Anything higher than that takes away important ice time for the youngsters. Granted, all of our young kids will not work out, but then you just get rid of them and bring on other kids. I agree that we’ll eventually need to plug the holes though, but not until we know what they are. Sure, there’s a hole at LW now, when we are not competing for the cup. However, give a couple young kids the chance to fill it, and by the time we are ready to compete, we may have a hole at RW or Center. We may try Mueller, Stewart and Stoa all at LW and find that they are better there then at RW. There’s no need to make a long-term commitment to somebody that we have no intentions of building around just because, at this point in time, we have a hole at one position.
No
but look you add free agents a as they come along. The avs, and their fanbase don’t know exactly what they have in some of these players. The young D, Yip, Galiardi, Mueller, Jones, even O’Reilly are still a bit of unknown quantities. I have no problems with not signing guys who would play their position and letting those guys work it out and develop.
But the Avs know exactly what they don’t have they absolutely do not have a top-6 left winger, and they do not have a 1st-pairing defensive defenseman in the system. No amount of letting the young kids develop is going to solve this problem, so you sign guys as they come along. Kovi is a 1st line LW, exactly what the Avs need, and exactly what isn’t coming down the line. If the avs want to win the cup in the next few years they need one. Now’s the right time to try and secure one of the best in the game.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 7:21 AM MDT up reply actions
The problem is they aren’t going to get ice time because a vet is taking up their spot. Would you prefer that we just keep Stoa or others down in the minors where they won’t really learn to play at the next level?
If Stoa’s ready, he’ll get playing time. No coach is going to give Koci, Winnik, or McLeod minutes if Stoa needs the playing time. The players that will hurt are the three I mentioned, not the young guy with potential.
He’ll especially get enough playing time since it’s extremely unlikely a team will go through the season without injuries. Especially the Avs.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Especially the Avs.
It’s so true, but makes me so very, very, very sad. Even the snowblowers conspire against them.
Sandie
"We called him Clark Kent because away from the rink, he was just a nerd. Then he'd go into the Colorado dressing room and put on his Avs jersey, and all of a sudden he was Super Joe"- Theo Fleury
by Sandie Gauthier on Jul 6, 2010 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Doom and Gloom on the front pages of MHH? you’d think this was 2008..
I agree with what Nemesis and Bob94 have said above, I think this is being read into a little much. Call me a drinker of the Avs-aid but I think these ‘cost cutting’ measures will save us from a chicago type situation in the future, like others have said over the past few days, these next couple of years are HUGE for the club. With little time left on contracts, if they post big #‘s they’re going to want the $$ and i’d rather us be able to pony up the money then, and stash it in a rainy day fund now, than having them walk.
Is it October yet?!
chicago type situation in the future
you mean a Stanley Cup?
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions
as in we bet the farm on 4 players and then 2 days after the champagne stops flowing, deal them away
Is it October yet?!
CHI came away from those deals is a possibly better position. I’d be glad to be there.
Never trust the lunch lady.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Jul 5, 2010 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree. Chicago didn’t nearly get the prison raping that many were foreseeing. If Atlanta is going to be a dumping ground for salary and over-hyped players, I hope they’re around when the Avs need ’em.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
and the selloff happened AFTER they won a Cup. just sayin’
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions
The Avs should start training Billington as a sleeper agent to export to Atlanta in the same way that Chicago did with their front office people.
by Inebriated Simian Miscreants on Jul 6, 2010 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions
I would agree that these moves make sense, if the Avs were ANYWHERE NEAR the cap limit. But they’re not.
Remember a year or so ago? There were rumors that Kroenke liked the fact that the Nuggets didn’t spend much on salary (relatively) and made it all the way to the conference finals.
I think the days of spending up to the cap are over for this ownership.
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
There were rumors that Kroenke liked the fact that the Nuggets didn’t spend much on salary (relatively) and made it all the way to the conference finals.
This isn’t the first time I’ve read a statement similar to this. Is anyone surprised that Stan is psyched they got a good team on the cheap? Did they expect him to come out and say “Gosh all those wins were nice, but I sure wish we could have spent more money to get them.”?
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
Maybe this whole “being cheap” thing was just during the Kroenke acquisitions of the Rams and Arsenal?
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
why anyone would want to own the rams is beyond me..must be because he’s a good ol’ missouri boy
Is it October yet?!
ownership already negotiated a deal with that their TV contracts still pay out during a lockout. Owners will maintain cashflow and the players will fold like a deck of cards. The NFL is made of money.
Too bad
The NFL’s biggest problem, (in my eyes) is non-guaranteed contracts. It makes all their contracts a joke, and the fact that any player can be cut at any time is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.
I don’t think the players will fold quite so easily though, because the biggest battle isn’t owner vs players, but it’s owner vs owner. The players are going to have a tough time negotiating because they won’t have anyone to negotiate with. Until the owners work out internal discord, there will be no agreement.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 7:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I think any lockout will be over extremely quickly for a couple of reasons. NFL owners want a rookie salary cap/structure. NFL vets want the same cap. The only ones that want to defend that horrible rookie contract structure are future NFL players and agents. When it comes to a lockout in the NFL, no one is going to be around to represent those guys. Guaranteed contracts in the NFL are crazy I admit but at the same time those players/agents massage the semantics of that term by loading their deals with signing bonuses and “renegotiating” their deals. Basically it hurts the middle to lower tier players and still rewards stars.
We are a bit off topic but in any case, the NFL is going to get that deal done extremely quick. One of the biggest issues being the rookie salaries. Someone has to protect Al Davis from giving Jamarcus Russell 60 million dollars before he plays a game.
agree
that will be one point in which they agree very quickly. Imagine if Duchene had an $8M cap hit this season, that’s essentially what’s happening in the NFL. I imagine the players will (should) use this as a bargaining chip though. Even if they want it, the league wants it more and the players should use it to get something else.
But I still think it’s going to come down to small market and big market owners, and less players vs owners. There’s a war brewing between these two, and the players can’t do much about it even if they want to get a deal done quickly.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 8:13 AM MDT up reply actions
I guarantee the NFL lockout won’t last more than one season. As stated above, the owners will get money from the TV deal even if they don’t play. I think the numbers is $500M to split among the owners. But it only goes for one season, and after that the owners will need to put a product on the field. Personally, any hit the NFL takes is a good one. It’s becoming like the evil empire of the sports world.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I think ti will only last a season.
The NFL is really starting to bother me, whether it’s from concussion research, to their contracts, to their generally fan-unfriendly approach (I don’t think there’s a business in America that treats their customers with such contempt outside of oil companies)
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions
I don’t think there’s a business in America that treats their customers with such contempt outside of oil companies
I couldn’t have said this better.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I think oil companies get unfairly bashed. Just about every manufactured drink is more expensive per gallon than gas and about 10 times cheaper to make.
Budweiser is somewhere around $9.00/gallon and that is some shitty beer.
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 6, 2010 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions
I’d bet that a gallon of Bud costs less than $9 for them to make. They probably get it down to $5 / gallon. Rice is cheap.
"Here's your dream: Matt Duchene, can he do it?... HE CAN! HE DID IT! MATT DUCHENE AND THE AVS ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS!" - Mike Haynes
The players’ issue with the owners regarding the rookie salary cap is ensuring that the money saved on rookie contracts is spent on veteran contracts.
by Inebriated Simian Miscreants on Jul 6, 2010 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions
I think you’re right for now but I get the feeling that, as we get closer to being a top team, we’ll spend to get the final pieces.
I would agree…but…why would you trade Wolski when you are in the hunt for the playoffs?
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
Maybe Skipper Joe has the ear of Sherman and Stan more then we think?
Sacco: Boys, i can’t work with this kid..
Sherman: ok joe, we’ll find you a new one
Is it October yet?!
Or maybe it’s like this:
Sacco: Guys, I would really use a decent defenseman added to this lineup. Not necessarily the best guy in the league, but it would be nice to have at least one guy I know is always part of my number one pairing.
Sherman: We re—-signed Quincey.
Sacco: Quincey is pretty good, but he’s not a clear cut number one guy I can count on to shut down the opposition.
Sherman: You’ll probably have some good rookies in a couple years, and then we can get rid of Hannan.
Sacco: Maybe a good LW? It would be nice to have a real first line LW.
Sherman: Can’t Craig Anderson score some goals?
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
I understand the strategy
I think it is actually pretty good. The Avs need to let their guys grow and identify a core. Two things make me want to gag though.
1. In the meantime – This notion that we don’t need help in the interim. This process will take a few years. 1 or 2 reinforcements will make the team stronger the next couple of years and help the younger guys develop.
2. The ‘Letter’ – The official propaganda letter from management was extremely insulting. Dear fans, we are going to suck in the near term and charge you up the nose for tickets because we have a plaaaannnnnn.
2-3 years is an eternity in sports and full of risk on and off the rink. Even if the plan works the fans shouldn’t be alienated.
Never trust the lunch lady.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Jul 5, 2010 10:16 AM MDT reply actions
It’s true…viewing last year conservatively as a fluke would justify these decisions—seeing if players like yip, Andy, jones, ferris, and quincey are flukes or if they’ll build and not get injured is a good idea so we know exactly where to build. Then we can trade and not just poke and hope in free agency.
by hedge_duck on Jul 5, 2010 12:56 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
There isn’t one right way to build a championship team. The Avs are in a stage right now where they have to find out if some of their young prospects can play or not. Once they determine that, they can move out some bodies and then fill holes via FA.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 11:42 AM MDT reply actions
Couldn't have said it better myself
best to make sure you really know what you have before jumping the gun and stunting team growth overall.
I said something similar on an earlier thread. They got rid of several useless players (Svatos, Clark, etc) this year, and they will probably look at trading Hannan and Liles, or not resigning them. I think this is Foote’s last year, if I recall. So they will have room for 3 young defensemen to play the season after this one. It is going to take a couple of years to test the prospects to see whether they can play. If 3-4 years from now, they see they have holes and are unwilling to do anything about it, then it will obviously mean money is entirely the issue.
In the meantime during this rebuild, I would like to see the Avs give some nice price deals or perks to season and partial seaso ticket holders. You know, the loyal followers of the team who stick with them through thick or thin.
2009-2010 Colorado Avalanche: Now with Playoff Goodness!
In the meantime during this rebuild, I would like to see the Avs give some nice price deals or perks to season and partial seaso ticket holders. You know, the loyal followers of the team who stick with them through thick or thin.
I feel this is a big issue…if you aren’t going to lower your ticket prices, you’d better put some bigger names on the ice. If you are going to go through a “rebuild”, that could potentially lower the quality of the “entertainment” you are putting on the ice, then lower your ticket prices.
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by Americanario on Jul 5, 2010 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I definately agree that the Avs should give fans a break in regards to ticket prices. If they are going with the kids, we’ll see some ups and downs, so they definately should reward the fans. I don’t think they will though and that will certainly upset many people.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Where is the "For Sale" sign?
Here’s where I’m most concerned. We have an owner who is much more focused on his NFL and EPL franchises. The NFL says he cannot own major league teams in other NFL markets. He’s been playing silly buggers with the ownership of the Nuggets and Avs to try and get around this rule.
Maybe he’s positioning the Avs for a sale.
He has a property with a great history of fan support, good facilities, good young talent, and a low salary load for the next couple of seasons. Quite honestly, if I had the resources of a potential NHL owner, I’d be on the phone to KSE. The Nuggets have done well the past few seasons, so maybe a package deal with the Nuggets and the Pepsi Center?
Next stop, Total Fantasy Land…
The only missing piece is a bankable superstar for the Avs. I’d be on the phone with Kovi’s agent at the same time, get handshake deals all round and then go to the NHL for approval. Sign it all off at the end of the summer.
It's all fun and games until someone blows up Detroit...then it's a PARTY!!!
I don’t think he’s trying to sell the Avs. With Altitude Entertainment, the Nuggets and Pepsi center he wants to keep the Avs. After all, they pay ZERO rent technically. Avs may be the red-headed step child but he’s not going to sell them and break up that package.
I’d be on the phone to KSE. The Nuggets have done well the past few seasons, so maybe a package deal with the Nuggets and the Pepsi Center and broadcasters not on the company payroll
fixed ;)
Is it October yet?!
speaking of broadcasters
slightly off topic, why don’t the Avs have Fox Sports affiliate? was there contracts and FS’s ran out and KSE bought them? or did Stan have a ‘vision’ of not only owning the teams and the building, but a network to broadcast them on?
Is it October yet?!
They did. Kroenke moved the teams off of FSN RM after the 2003-04 season to his new Altitude network. FSN realistically couldn’t handle having three of the four major sports teams in Denver as several Avs and Nuggets games were not broadcasted due to overlap.
FSN RM still exists and broadcasts Rockies games, CU games and DU hockey games.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Great deal for the Devils (if/when it's official)
So there will be some pain to work out in terms of who to dump to make Kovalchuck fit. I don’t think it’ll be as easy a getting rid of older/underachieving players, like White, Rolston, Salvador, Zubrus or whoever. I think there will have to be a desirable property in there, like Travis Zajac, for instance.
But…look what Lou did this off-season compared to what the Ghost of Pierre Lacroix did. One team will have a legitimate shot to be the best in the East (and, by default, a Stanley Cup contender); the other will struggle to make the playoffs in the West. One team will see a bump in their attendance because of new faces; the other will see attendance continue to decline as they struggle. One team has a fanbase buzzing; the other has alienated part of its fanbase.
I think Pierre, in his dotage, just stopped trying as hard. He decided it was more fun to hang out with Celine Dion and her husband and make sure that his son was taken care of with a nice job in the organization. Lou is an ornery old bastard, but he’s kept trying to make and re-make his team, and you’ve got to give him credit for that.
You'll see all your favorite soccer stars. Like Adiaga! Adiaga two! Badiaga! Aruglia! And Pizzoza!
by Dan Winkler on Jul 5, 2010 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions
7 / 60 is a great deal for the Devils
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Just so you know thats not confirmed. It says Kovalchuk is expected to sign the deal this afternoon.
by NEB on Jul 5, 2010 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
They’ll have nearly 50 million dedicated to 12 players for 11-12, should be interesting who they move in order to keep Parise.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Which begs an interesting question,
if you’re Parise, just how committed are you to a team that has very clearly and publicly made you the 2nd line LW?
Even if he’s cool with that (for the sake of argument), with the cap issues that they have now, what kind of team can they build with Kovy, Brodeur and Parise eating what would have to be close to $20M per? I really wonder about Parise long term as a Devil in this instance.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Odd. Was the Kings offer that much less?
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 5, 2010 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Other factors?
The East is an easier conference, he knows the players on the Devils, Lou has always been Russian-friendly, the Devils have less travel than any team in the NHL…who knows?
You'll see all your favorite soccer stars. Like Adiaga! Adiaga two! Badiaga! Aruglia! And Pizzoza!
by Dan Winkler on Jul 5, 2010 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions
To me LA seems so much more attractive than NJ at this moment in time. But what the hell do I know?
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 5, 2010 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions
if you can believe Eklund, no deal done yet, now they’re saying he still might go to Russia……
If he’s jerking teams around as much as it sounds, he’ll end up the most hated guy in the NHL
I love the Avs
I’m a die-hard fan.
That being said, I’m beyond sick and tired of the management and owners.
It’s fine to keep the payroll low while icing a team of cheap young rockstars. It’s almost tolerable that they don’t market the team worth a crap. We have the fine bloggers here and on other sites to keep the fires stoked. It is becoming natural that they don’t reach out to the fans with appreciation days and things like that.
What is not acceptable is doing the above while keeping ticket prices so damn high!
They want to rebuild and stay on the salary cap floor? Fine. Kronke wants to focus on every other team in his empire and treat his championship winning hockey team as an afterthought? Fine.
They want to do that and still maintain some of the most expensive tickets in North America? GET BENT!!
But, that’s just my opinion. I will look forward to watching the team on tv. After the pre-season that is.
I will look forward to this because watching on tv, ordering food in, and getting a keg at home would still be less expensive than actually going to the Pepsi Center to watch the team in person.
I only hope that if the team makes the playoffs again this season the ownership and management actually raise an eyebrow and pay attention to their hockey team.
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
As a member in good standing with the PFJ I truly hate only two things:
The JPF and the Detroit Red Wings! And Red Wing fans. Ok, I truly hate three things...
by Luxury Yacht on Jul 5, 2010 1:21 PM MDT reply actions 4 recs
The Avs ticket prices are more in the middle now, but they could do better things to market this team. Forget about Kovalchuk, why not market the up an coming young stars that you have right now? Take a page from the Colorado Rockies, they do a wonderful job marketing the team.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also they could make it so their “coupon days” or “great deals” aren’t along the wall behind the net.
I do enjoy their company, but I would rather not have a need for a sherpa and a pack mule with oxygen tanks to find my seats.
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
As a member in good standing with the PFJ I truly hate only two things:
The JPF and the Detroit Red Wings! And Red Wing fans. Ok, I truly hate three things...
http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/victoria-cup-match-a-barn-burner-in-zurich/
That’s only for non-premium ticket prices though. The article I remember seeing showed the Avs in the middle of the pack when you factored in premium tickets, but I’ve tried and can’t find the article.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions
I found it. It was in Terry Frei’s blog:
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions
ok, so the first one did all the non-premium seats…but we all know the Avs classify insane amounts of seats as premium (the whole lower bowl). TMR’s stuff is plain awful, completely invalid.
Frei’s work is an interesting data point. I’d like to see a much larger sample set before I agreed that we’re in the middle of the pack. The entire lower bowl (at least in my experience) is similar to that $100 price he listed for a blue line ticket. it’s a pretty ad hoc comparison at best.
thanks for the sources! :)
Yeah, it seems like the Avs massage the numbers to lower the posted avg ticket price.
Never trust the lunch lady.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Jul 5, 2010 10:50 PM MDT up reply actions
The true test for me is what the lowest ticket price is. Last year, you couldn’t get in the door for less than $26. I’d like to see how that compares to other teams.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
mfured20...
…you in or near Dallas? I’m in San Antonio. I’m gonna drive to Dallas for the preseason game on the 24th of September. Wish I could get those student prices…still, only $124 for three of us to sit in the second or third row from the glass is not bad ($35 each).
You should all see the prices in Calgary, before you complain. My wife’s from Calgary, and the lower bowl Flames tickets are at least $150 each. I think you have to pay $35 – $50 for the crappiest tickets. Season before last, I paid something like $300 for my wife and I to sit at the top of the 200 level. It was ridiculous.
Not that it’s the right price to compare, but just look on the bright side, that the Avs’ fans probably don’t even have it THAT bad.
I think what it really comes down to is how much the people want to see the game. Those people in Calgary are obviously such big fans, that they’re willing to pay those prices. So, you really can only blame so much on those ticket prices…
While true, the Flames aren’t competing with several large university’s football/hockey/basketball programs (men’s and women’s), an NBA team, a MLB team, and a beloved NFL team. The Calgary ticket prices are what the market can bear for the entertainment dollar. The lack of butts in the seats in Denver is proof that the tickets are overpriced.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
That doesn’t sound unlike the Avs tickets at all. A back row corner ticket at the can runs about $35 after the service fees.
Depending on the location of the lower bowl, they’d run about 150 in Denver as well. A back row in the corner of the lower bowl starts at 100, and increases as you get closer to center ice. 150 is probably on the cheaper end of the “premium” seats at The Can.
"Here's your dream: Matt Duchene, can he do it?... HE CAN! HE DID IT! MATT DUCHENE AND THE AVS ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS!" - Mike Haynes
Crappiest tix in the Can are ~$25. My 14 game pack tix were $36, and they got you corner seats 2nd deck. $50 for center ice center deck, a little cheaper behind the net.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 7, 2010 8:38 AM MDT up reply actions
on the glass seats are $198ea. to season ticket holders what are the flames?
retsasiddetagitimnuna. I’m petty sure that’s contagious, stay away.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 7, 2010 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Looks like Brett Clark is headed to Tampa Bay.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 2:00 PM MDT reply actions
Good for Clark
No matter what anyone thought about his on-ice performance (which varied) or his contract (which wasn’t his fault), he was a guy who worked his way into regular playing time after bouncing around for a bit, and he always seemed to play hard when he was on the ice. Good luck to him.
You'll see all your favorite soccer stars. Like Adiaga! Adiaga two! Badiaga! Aruglia! And Pizzoza!
by Dan Winkler on Jul 5, 2010 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions
True Dat.
Part of me will miss his ugly nose and Buick windshield helmet visor.
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
And Old Faithful stops Geysing.
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 5, 2010 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions
I was thinking he would fit better on an East Coast team.
I wish him well there.
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
As a member in good standing with the PFJ I truly hate only two things:
The JPF and the Detroit Red Wings! And Red Wing fans. Ok, I truly hate three things...
I think that Avs management and/or ownership are taking a massive gamble by sticking to their “build from within” plan. I’m not saying, that they should have gone after Kovy, but they at least should have adressed some of the teams needs via free agency. I’m talking about a first line LW and a proven defender.
Just look at last season: We barely made the playoffs and if it weren’t for the great run in October, the Avs would have missed the playoffs. So if one or two of our youngsters hit a wall in their development or some players get hurt, we could be in real trouble to make the playoffs.
This exactly what I said a couple days ago. And meanwhile, all the teams around the Avs have added players and presumably gotten better, while the Avs are willing to sit on their first round playoff exit hockey team.
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
Not forever. The idea is to give their youngsters time to develop instead of sacrificing those spots for FAs. After you have evaluated those players, you move out the unsuccessful ones and then use free agency to fill the gaps.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 3:37 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Opportunities will exist especially as the league gets younger.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 3:55 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I mostly worry about the quality of FAs available when the kids are ripe. As much as I want a shutdown defenseman this year, its def not necessary. Getting a huge first line LWer is much more important to me. And if the rumors are true, and the Avs DID make an offer on Kovy after he had come down to earth and Kovy didnt take it, I don’t expect the team to do anything else.
Hannan, Foote, and Liles contracts are all up next year. That frees up a lot of money, and even if we re-sign Liles and THEN look for that shut down dude and our kiddies get some playing time in the meantime… I would be fine with that.
Thanks Joe...
From Kovy’s agent. He said he had offers from LA, NJD, and the Avs. I just read it on one of these threads today. Ill find it.
Thanks Joe...
Cut + Pasted from the Day Three thread -
euroflyers
Ilya Kovalchuk has offers from the Kings, Flyers, Avalanche and SKA of the KHL. All offers from the NHL are similar according to his agent.
This is according to his agent. can we believe any of that?
Not sure of the actual source, but both KevinG and zandar quoting it. Apparantly Dater refutes it.
Thanks Joe...
And here is a link to Dater’s take on the situation.
also a pretty damn weak link that mentions the Avs making a run at Kovy…
Thanks Joe...
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Detroit Sucks
Yet I still think, that the Avs should have tried to improve the team instead of doing nothing and risking a step back.
As BraxtanFILM already pointed out a lot of the teams in the West have added players and it will be even more difficult to reach to playoffs. So it should be the organizations main target to, at least, repeat last season’s success and, if possible, take the next step. But right now it seems, that they are rather willing to make a step back.
In the light of last year’s attendance, I don’t think the Avs could afford another season without playoff appearance.
Besides, I wasn’t talking about signing Kovie or any other FA to long term deals. Rather fill the existing holes in the roster with, for example. 2-year deals.
We get the strategy. They just need to augment the strategy.
Never trust the lunch lady.
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Jul 7, 2010 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Keeping to the strategy and signing a big name free agent are not mutually exclusive. A player of Kovy’s cailber comes along only once every five years. And besides, the Avs DID make an offer for Kovy similar to the ones that NJD and LAK offered, if you can believe his agent. They recognize that we don’t really have an in-house top-line LWer, unless maybe we can count Davey Jones. I don’t want to take time away from the development of prospects, but some opportunities are just too good to pass up.
Thanks Joe...
That’s an easy lie to throw out there because the Avs have cap space. And it certainly doesn’t hurt Kovi to have other teams think there are more in the bidding.
I don’t think that agents are allowed to lie about that… at least thats what Jori said. If they say they have an offer, odds are they had an offer. I just don’t believe it was anywhere near what LAK or NJD were willing to give him. you can lie about the amount of an offer, but probably not that you got one.
Thanks Joe...
Hm, that’s interesting. How would they prove it though? It would be the Avs word against the agents and there certainly wouldn’t be any recording for something that never happened. Also, there wouldn’t be much motive for the Avs to try and get the agent in trouble, especially sense they may have to deal with him someday.
The picture is that it wouldn’t be worth it to bring in an average, veteran top 6 forward instead of one of the young forwards. Kovie is not some average, top 6 forward, and players of that caliber are not available every offseason.
by Inebriated Simian Miscreants on Jul 7, 2010 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Clark
heard he got 2 years 3 mil a year…wow would not think he would of gotten half of last years salary nevermind almost the same
Quincey’s contract doesn’t look so bad now doesn’t it?
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 3:39 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
okay, this one I kind of nailed
I’m going to take a wild stab and say he lands with one of the Florida teams for, say, a 2-year, $5 million deal.
http://www.milehighhockey.com/2010/5/31/1494317/the-avs-unrestricted-free-agents
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
should have also included
He wasn’t quite worth the $3.5 million he’s earned in each of the last 3 years, but I think he may get more than you’d expect this summer.
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
So it turned out to be 2 years for $3 million total – 1.7 the first year, 1.3 the 2nd year. That’s according to tbo.com.
You'll see all your favorite soccer stars. Like Adiaga! Adiaga two! Badiaga! Aruglia! And Pizzoza!
by Dan Winkler on Jul 5, 2010 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions
True,
but what kind of tools do the Avs look like for having failed to get even a little bit in return at the trade deadline?
Let Avs allowed Clark to suck them dry with nary a nickel of return in exchange. That, right there, boys & girls, is some fine general managing!
Of course, seeing as how he was built from within,
…what? Drafted by MTL you say? We let Sauer (one of our picks) go in favor of Clark you say? Traded with ATL to get him you say?
Well, I’m stumped.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
There probably wasn’t much of a market for him considering what he signed for.
I know that you are being somewhat sarcastic, but the “build from within” philosophy is only within it’s early stages. It was only three years ago that they shelled out millions for Smyth and Hannan. It didn’t work, now they are trying something different.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 6:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Why does it have to be one or the other? Signing Smyth and Hannan didn’t cost us any picks or prospects. Free agents don’t get in the way of building from within; trading prospects and pics at the deadline is what gets in the way of that. Trading a 3rd-round pick for a 4th line player is what gets in the way of building from within.
I could understand not signing free agents that will soon be replaced by young players you are expecting, such as leaving room for our young defensemen. But this left wing issue is beyond confusing. You know better than anyone if any of the guys we have in the system or recently drafted project to a 1st-line LW. Who do we have to fill that role, and how long will it take to be NHL ready?
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
The problem with signing Kovy is the length and the Cost
Would you give up even the smallest chance of losing Duchene or Oreilly if that was the risk it took for Kovy?
I wouldn’t want to have Kovy’s paycheque get in the way of Duchene’s or Oreilly’s.
Dear Colorado Avalanche: Thank you for the excitement, see you in October.
But see, I really believe that’s a straw man. This team is stretching, craning, in order to reach the cap FLOOR. Signing one guy to an $8.5M contract, while we have no pending UFA / RFA apocalypse as the LAK do, to a degree, or even NSH with both Weber & Suter needing to get paid next year and the annual escalator on the cap working out to roughly 8% over the last 5 years, all the revenue and economic trouble notwithstanding, is not abandoning the principle of keeping the young guns around. There will be plenty left to pay these guys and alot of the RFA hit is staggered between the forwards in the last two years and the dmen in the next two.
If by some happy work of chance, we end up with a team full of 9 first line forwards and 6 top pairing dmen that need to be paid and played according to their talents, we’ll have to address that when it comes, but not signing Kovy (or another high impact free agent in a position of need if there were one) is not going to avoid that happy fate if we are so doomed!
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
I certainly don’t want to get back into the Kovie talk. We’ve talked circles on that for the better part of a month. But the question remains, who is the long-term solution at LW for our first line?
Without free agents, we’re looking at Galiardi/Jones on the first or second line for the foreseeable future, assuming Mueller will be paired with Duchene. Galiardi isn’t the offensive force we need for the top line, and Jones is made of paper and is already 25 years old.
I imagine we can trade for one, but that’s not exactly keeping with the company line of build from within.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I’m not sure whether Jones is made of paper, as you assert, or if he’s just had really bad luck that has now run its course (none of his injuries were related). I’d like to see Jones get a long, hard look at LW on the 1st/2nd line and put Gali with Radar and Yip on the 3rd for a defensively strong, offensively talented 3rd.
I suppose it’s possible that Stoa will show up like they hoped he would when they drafted him, but that is a pretty long shot in my mind.
Barring trade, which is the most likely answer in my mind (Parise, Sharp, Carter, Gagne in declining order of preference), we may just be making do with some combination of Gali/Jones/Yip/Stoa and that really doesn’t seem like the right answer at this point.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
At this point, Kovy seems to be going elsewhere. Much as I would have loved to have him, I would prefer giving those kids [Jones/Yip/Gally/Stoa] a long, hard look before we go off on a tear signing someone that won’t work as well, or trading away some of our young talent for an established LWer. It boils down similarly on defense. That top-pairing guy would be friggin awesome this year, but I would rather make some room for the kids to develop and see how it goes from there.
Thanks Joe...
WE HAVE 30 MILLION DOLLARS OF CAPSPACE THIS YEAR! Let’s look at his alleged contract with the Devils. 7 years for 60 mil. That’s not even 10 a year. How does that get in the way of Duchene? Duchene will be the one to get bigger money, between him and oreilly. I don’t buy that argument for a second, I’m sorry, I just don’t.
You’re making a tall assumption that we could have gotten the same deal as the Devils. Why would our offer be any different from the Kings or Thrashers who offered $10 mill?
who would have thought that someone would like to be in new jersey?
retsasiddetagitimnuna. I’m petty sure that’s contagious, stay away.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 6, 2010 8:22 AM MDT up reply actions
I think they want to give a guy like Stoa an opportunity to develop as that guy. Perhaps in the back of their minds they drafted Hishon with the thought of moving Duchene to LW.
I don’t believe they are closing the door on free agency completely. I just don’t think it’s in their plans for this offsesaon.
They want to give as many opportunities to see if these kids can play. I think their plan is to find out who they can really build the team around and then use free agency and trade to fill the gaps.
Unfortunately, it could take a couple years to figure things out.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t think I believe that they draft with the idea of filling a position. Prospects are typically far away from contributing and they may never work out anyway. With that in mind, it’s always better to take the best player available.
I agree, they go BPA and perhaps a trade is made later on, but if they keep everyone, somebody is going to have to move to wing. It’s definitely a possibility.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 6, 2010 12:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Right, I agree. This is why I think the Avs tend to draft a lot of centers. They are typically the best players available and they are also fairly versatile at the forward position. Yeah, I think we’ll see Stoa at LW because that’s the need right now. I’m not sure about Duchene yet, it will be interesting to see what happens when Hishon comes onto the scene.
The Avs head of scouting is projecting Hishon at two years out, assuming they were right in taking him so high and his injuries are a thing of the past.
A guy like Ray Whitney, who took a two-year deal, would have been a great fit for our top line to help fill that gap and give us fans a little more bang for our buck.
In my mind, Stoa would have to have one hell of a start to the season to prove that he belongs on the Avs’ roster. I wasn’t impressed much with his game last year, and when you are sitting in the press box while Marek Svatos skates, that’s not a good sign.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I wasn’t impressed with Stoa’s NHL game so much but I think he’s developing at the right pace and he had a great rookie year in the AHL. Hishon at two years out sounds great.
So we these guys competing for a top 6 spot:
1. Hejduk
2. Stastny
3. Duchene
4. Stewart
5. Mueller
6. Yip
7. Galliardi
8. Jones
9. Stoa
If I didn’t miss anybody, that’s 9 guys competing for 6 spots. That doesn’t seem like we need to add another.
Neither Yip nor Galiardi strike me as top-6 forwards for anything more than stop-gaps. Others may disagree. Regardless it wouldn’t hurt the Avs to have one or both of them on the third line giving the Avs one of the best 3rd lines in the league. Jones, too, isn’t a guarantee as he has been injury prone. After watching Stoa last year I don’t think he’ll be competing for a top-6 spot this season.
I see 5 legitimate top-6 fowards in that list (Hejduk, Stastny, Duchene, Stewart, and Mueller). One Questionable (Jones) Two very questionable (Yip, Galiardi) and one doubtful (Stoa). It wouldn’t hurt anything to put Yip and Gali on the 3rd line (or even one on the 4th, and use him as injury fill in/spot duty etc).
Plus there will be injuries, and after these 9 (and I’d say 8) the Avs are incredibly thin.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions
I wonder why Afiniganov (sp?) is still unsigned?
I don’t think he would do too bad with the Avs.
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
As a member in good standing with the PFJ I truly hate only two things:
The JPF and the Detroit Red Wings! And Red Wing fans. Ok, I truly hate three things...
by Luxury Yacht on Jul 6, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions
I don’t see why so many are down on Galiardi. Scoring 39 points in his rookie year is pretty decent. It’s not like he sucked in the juniors or college either (basically posting a point per game in each). He’s decent size but not overly big (which would probably make him slow). He can kill penalties too. I think he has a shot at being a top 6 guy. Stoa is a little unknown but I won’t be surprised at all to see him turn some heads in his second year (providing he gets some ice time in his first year).
I also think Galiardi has a chance to be that guy as well, and I’m higher on Stoa than most. They could very well end up being solid players down the road.
I still would have signed Kovy, but there’s no point in re-hashing that.
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 6, 2010 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions
I could see Galiardi in the top 6 if he had a legitimate shot (as in wrist shot etc.). If his scoring I think he will be much more useful scoring 8-10 goals as a 3rd/4th liner.
If his scoring ability matched his effort he could be amazing
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 6, 2010 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Galiardi
His SFon/60 was very low (23.2) despite having a pretty solid supporting cast for a large part of the season. Only Yip, Hendricks, Tucker, and Koci were lower, yet his GFon/60 was 5th among Avs forwards. This screams of having himself a fortunate season points-wise.
I like Galiardi, I love him as a player. But he doesn’t have the scoring touch of a top-6er. I think he’s the perfect 3rd liner.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
I was on the phone otherwise I would have been first!
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 6, 2010 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions
HA
You social life is once again getting in the way of internet arguments. Loser.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions
Is there somewhere that I can find references / explanations of these stats that keep getting thrown around? I’m a late joiner to the blogging world and I’m a bit lost from time to time.
Here
Here’s behind the nets comprehensive list
XXon/60 is the amount of XX (Goals, Shots, points, etx) that are generated while a player is on the ice for every 60 minutes of ice time they have.
XXoff/60 is the amount of XX that is generated for every 60 min they aren’t on the ice.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Behind the net
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Don’t get sucked into the Corsi-brotherhood. Just kidding, I think it’s a useful stat but has its limits. And they treat it like it’s the only stat that matters in the world there.
retsasiddetagitimnuna. I’m petty sure that’s contagious, stay away.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 6, 2010 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions
I like SF/SA /60 (along with looking at Qcomp and Qteam for context). Corsi isn’t a difficult concept, but i’m not sure it has a decided advantage over a simple SF/SA formula (Something I should ask Gabe about)
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions
How’s this for an idea, I will average them all together and you can use it like QB rating in football. We can call it the ‘disaster index’ or ‘disaster number’ with a catchy name like that it’s bound to catch on.
retsasiddetagitimnuna. I’m petty sure that’s contagious, stay away.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 6, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Best part
is that the formula will only be known by you or me, giving us complete and total victory in any arguments we may have, with no possible way to refute them.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I was thinking add them together and divide by two, but if you want to make it really cool, we’ll multiply by Pi for no reason.
retsasiddetagitimnuna. I’m petty sure that’s contagious, stay away.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 6, 2010 8:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Also
multiply everything by 63/131 and round to 3 decimals just so it looks sciencey
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions
I’m liking this.
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 6, 2010 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions
I think he will improve his shots data for sure. He’s only 19 and players tend to peak around 26-27. Its likely that his shots for will increase (and his Shots against will likely decrease, which is good).
But an increase in shots doesn’t necessarily mean an increase in goals/points. If he was fortunate last season his game could improve substantially however his point totals stay the same or even decrease a little bit.
Which is exactly what I think will happen. I think Gali will improve as a player, but his more recognizable stats Goals/assists will flatline a little.
If he improves to the tune of 1 shot/60 next season he’ll still be in the same range as McLeod Porter, and O’Reilly.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions
Galiardi is 22. Just wanted to clear that up in case you see us out having a cold one.
"Half the game is mental; the other half is being mental." -- Jim McKenny
I’m not down on him, but if you’re going to hedge your bet now is the time to get someone on a one or two year deal.
retsasiddetagitimnuna. I’m petty sure that’s contagious, stay away.
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Jul 6, 2010 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions
He’s also a center being asked to play winger. I personally think he’s playing that position more like a center than a wing in a lot of cases. The Avs are embarrassingly deep at center. Gally seemed to try and be a playmaker a lot of the season rather than a shoot first kind of player. He’s got a bit of Tanguay in him (not his touch, just his mentality. But way better defensively. OK, he’s nothing like Tangs). I don’t think you’ll see many plays with him snapping off a shot without looking for a pass first. On the other side of the coin that’s exactly what Yip does (see his first goal).
Agree, but it’s not his shots per60, it’s shots he’s on the ice for. So if he is looking to pass, he’s still (in theory) setting someone up to shoot. I agree he’s more pass-first but either his passes aren’t connecting or he’s on the same line as two other passers who never shoot the damn puck.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Considering Gali and O Reilly are the number one PK option I’d expect them to be on the ice for lots of shots against. Or is that stat for even strength only.
by NEB on Jul 6, 2010 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions
ES only
But i would still expect the same out of both of them because they were still on the ice a lot for late game situations when the Avs were holding the lead, which tends to be a time when teams give up more shots
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Can you separate the stats on that website to see the shots for and against once Gali was on a line with Stewart and Stastny?
by NEB on Jul 6, 2010 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think so
I am not sure how to do that, other than go through each game sheet individually and look it up, which would be tedious, boring and long.
I might ask Gabe how he gets the stats in there so easily, he may have a script or something that he can pass along that makes it easy though.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Totally agree with you once again, Jibble. Except I think that Jonesy can pull off a top-line spot no problem, as long as he doesn’t spontaneously combust or something.
Thanks Joe...
The injuries are the questionable part. I like Jones a lot, and he’s talented (also he gets the Avs a lot of PPs. On the forecheck tracks penalties drawn and Jones always does well.) I think he’s a good 20-25G/ season guy if he could just stay healthy
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 6:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Looks like RDS is changing their story and saying Clark’s contract is 2 years @ $1.5 million.
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 3:57 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Eh nevermind, TSN says it’s 3 million per.
Colorado Avalanche Prospects: For daily news on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 4:01 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
And a TB paper says it’s 2 years @ $1.3 million. I’m just going to stop now…lol
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by Angélique C. Murray on Jul 5, 2010 4:07 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s gotta be 1.3/per. That’s crazy over-paying for Clark if it’s 3 per.
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by Dan Winkler on Jul 5, 2010 4:53 PM MDT up reply actions
That’s crazy over-paying for Clark
Yeah, we would never do that ;)
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
lol
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 6, 2010 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
This is seriously starting to get sad.
Every day I hear cries about how the team is lowballing by not signing Kovie’s diva ass is a day I roll my eyes roll.
Hammel-Chicken wearing USA gear says "booo"
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One of those rolls was unnessecary.
Hammel-Chicken wearing USA gear says "booo"
The 09/10 Colorado Rockies: Starring Johnny Herrera as THE ANSWER
THIS IS BUFFALO NATION GODZILLA HAS AWAKEN - abayarde
SBNation Denver: Because the Rapids are people too!
by UZ on Jul 5, 2010 4:53 PM MDT up reply actions
I think this is less about signing Kovy and more about being so far under the salary cap minimum along with other cost saving moves they have done in recent years.
Brannigan's Law is like Brannigan's love, hard and fast.
I don’t blame them for going far under the salary cap minimum, since they HAVE to bring it up eventually, as long as they keep the players around I honestly don’t give a rats ass how much they’re spending.
I put that in the same area as people complaining that the Avalanche draft nothing but “small players”, if they can play I don’t care.
Hammel-Chicken wearing USA gear says "booo"
The 09/10 Colorado Rockies: Starring Johnny Herrera as THE ANSWER
THIS IS BUFFALO NATION GODZILLA HAS AWAKEN - abayarde
SBNation Denver: Because the Rapids are people too!
by UZ on Jul 5, 2010 5:02 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t mind the small player thing either actually. I will take talent over size any day.
Brannigan's Law is like Brannigan's love, hard and fast.
I will take talent over size any day
I wish thats what she said.
Because we’re humans, damnit. HUMANS!!!
by Pinchy The Lobster on Jul 5, 2010 6:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh, I’m sure the Avs brass will take care of that next season.
After all, the local media is all over the Avs off season plans, just like the Nuggets.
I mean, the media was all over Duchene and other Avs players playing on the international stage.
Even in Denver, the local media are all over the NHL off season transactions, Kovie, and plans for next season. Almost as much as they are covering Lebron, Carmelo, and the NFL off season.
I’m sure there is more than one reporter/writer in the main stream media covering the Avs, right?
The Avs have interviews with players after they sign a contract like other teams right?
Yes, I am sure of all these certainties. I’m as sure of these as I am that the Avs brass will lower ticket prices to an affordable level next season!
I know my name is spelled "Luxury Yacht" but it's actually pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.
As a member in good standing with the PFJ I truly hate only two things:
The JPF and the Detroit Red Wings! And Red Wing fans. Ok, I truly hate three things...
Is this post to be taken literally?
Forgive me—I don’t live in Denver. So I don’t know if any of that is true…
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
it is not
Assistant *to* the Managing Editor, Mile High Hockey
by David Driscoll-Carignan on Jul 5, 2010 8:01 PM MDT up reply actions
So…hockey coverage in Denver has completely dropped off the map?
I lived in Denver from 2000-2006. And hockey was HUGE back then. Avs tickets were a big deal, and tough to come by. I remember during the playoffs, there would be ads on TV, billboards, and probably most notably, on the morning radio shows (Lewis and Floorwax). They would play commercials and song parodies throughout the day mocking the teams that the Avs would inevitably embarrass in the playoffs.
Those were the good old days. Gone, I guess.
The Colorado Avalanche: Building something out of stuff.
To a large degree, yes. Since Altitude took all of the games on TV and didn’t advertise anywhere but their own channel and especially after KSE moved the radio games off of the Fan radio (950AM previously, now 104something FM) onto a tiny little pissant of a nobody can get reception AM station, since the demise of the Rocky Mountain News meant that the inferior of the beat writers kept his job, since KSE began making the Avs harder to get into and hear about than the Masons or Scientology, yeah, hockey coverage in this town is pretty absent.
Colorado Avalanche Offseason Strategy - Please wake us in October
Arbitration
No Avs players filed for salary arbitration so it looks like they will work it out:
http://nhlpa.com/News/Media-Releases/Details.aspx?R=1E52ADDA-1463-4FCC-9857-880687AB2234
Seriously disappointed
Not in the Kovy no-show, but in the general attitude of the Avs management. Last season, the team overachieved, yet, after the Olympic break, it was like 2008 all over again. The only reason the Avs reached the playoffs was because of a hot start, where other teams underestimated them.
I think that the Avs had the 6th most SOG against them last year (please correct me) and a real leaky defence. Injuries mounted up and the team struggled towards the end of the season.
Absolutely no effort has been made to address these issues and that’s what pisses me off. Regardless of cap space or building from within, or anything else, there are real needs to be fixed, but the management is not interested.
What worries me is this: A couple of players have sophomore slumps. Andy gets peppered with shots and gets injured. Team goes on a losing streak. Heads go down, players get disheartened and it isn’t a learning experience any more, it is painful. Morale goes down and players get worse in a vicious spiral.
Next thing you know, the Avs miss the playoffs and fans are calling for management’s heads.
What would help minimise all that (imho) is more depth at LW and better D. (ie. someone able to clear the puck). Maybe a vet or two to help keep the young guns steady. Yet, the management does sweet fuck all.
My opinion is worth about what you paid for it: Nothing.
by Nemesis44UK on Jul 6, 2010 2:52 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
What did you think management meant when they said last summer that they were going to build from within? Should we deviate from the original plan because we looked pretty good (at times) last year?
Why would you think that players would stop learning/improving because they aren’t winning games? The youngsters need ice time and solid efforts, the final score doesn’t matter much right now. Sakic played on a horrible Quebec team while he came into the league and it didn’t hurt his development.
You’re probably right about the fans calling for mgmt heads though, if they don’t make the playoffs. It’s unfortunate that Fans have no patience and expect the rebuild to only last one year.
I expect they’ll have similar success as last year. If not, no big deal, I can wait for the rebuild to finish. I don’t see why most die-hard fans are not enjoying this situation. I missed the Nords rebuild when Sakic was first coming up. Now I get to see my favorite team rebuild, and the (not so immediate) future looks bright. The best part is, they are actually looking pretty good while they are rebuilding.
So, about this rebuild...
Now I get to see my favorite team rebuild, and the (not so immediate) future looks bright. The best part is, they are actually looking pretty good while they are rebuilding.
I think you need to make up your mind about it – are you OK if the Avs make the playoffs, or do you want them to draft high picks every year (like the oft-cited Blackhawks model)? That means we’ll have to stink a lot worse than we did last year. That means that we might even have to tank. We don’t want those 17th picks in the draft, we want top 5, right? How do you think we were lucky enough to get Duchene? It’s because we were a freaking miserable team (and miserable to watch) the year before, that’s how.
So I don’t know about looking pretty good while a team is rebuilding. Do the Oilers look pretty good. Have the Blue Jackets ever looked pretty good? The Islanders? Seems to me that to rebuild the way that’s been mooted here by a few folks (draft high, play the kids, give them time to see how they do in the NHL, then fill in other players as needed) is A) pretty painful to watch, and B) not guaranteed to have any success whatsoever. There are no guarantees about anything, of course, but since the Avs as we’ve known them have never been that type of team, I’ve got my doubts about this.
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by Dan Winkler on Jul 6, 2010 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Also
If we were going to do this, we should have tanked LAST season. The most recent draft was loaded with talent, and next seasons is, by all accounts, a weak one. Having a top-10 pick in the next draft may not mean much at all.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions
This season’s draft was pretty poor outside the two big forwards. As evidenced by the picks being all over the place and injury and skill questions for almost every other top pick.
Next season has better guys at the top. Both the 2010 and 2011 drafts are relatively poor compared to what we’ve seen in the past.
Somehow I get the feeling that you would have been really pissed if they would have tanked it last year.
yeah i would have. I don’t ever agree with tanking. However IF the strategy was to tank and get picks, last season would have been the one to do it.
Intelligent opinion does not follow the transitive property
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Jul 6, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Makes me wonder if the management DID plan on tanking a bit, with two eighteen year old centers…
Thanks Joe...
I think it’s a little by design. Kill two birds with one stone type of thing. Get massive ice time for the rookies and possibly get a better pick down the line.
I will always root for them to win but I don’t care that much about how they finish right now. If they win I love it and if they lose I don’t dwell on it. It would be different if we were losing with an older team though. However, sense they are committed to rebuilding with youth, I know they are doing something about it. I completely believe in the entire team right now, from management to the players (they’re all one).
I started watching the Blackhawks after they drafted Toews and I had a blast watching them slowly come up and finally win the cup. The Oilers are becoming one of my favorite teams right now because of the new young players that are coming up. I was always a huge Penguins fan and I loved watching the rebuild there.
There is no guarantee that UFAs will bring success either and it’s much harder to get rid of them in the post-lockout era (Kariya and Selanne come to mind).