Mis-management?
An Unmitigated Disaster opined that he had noticed that Avalanche PK specialist Daniel Winnik seemed to be seeing a lot of ice time in the month of November. So much ice time that he was eclipsing talented players like Paul Stastny, Matt Duchene, Milan Hejduk, and David Jones. I wondered if his numbers were inflated due to the penalty kill time he sees as there would likely be no other justifiable reason for such a discrepancy. I then politely asked AUD to verify his assertions using maths. Which is exactly what he/she did. Sorta. So, in an effort to both keep my word and avoid work associated with my own livelihood, I decided to take a closer look.
AUD pointed his readers to nhl.com's and BEHINDTHENET.ca's time-on-ice (TOI) numbers. To save your clicking fingers a workout, I'll summarize:
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Just as Disaster suspected.... Winnick IS leading forwards (20 games minimum) in ES TOI. He's also right behind Jay McClement for Penalty Kill TOI. Taken in a vacuum, that's a tad worrying. But when you look at how bunched up the ES #'s are, it readily apparent that Joe Sacco is rolling two lines heavily: a) Ryan O`Reilly's line with Winnik locked in on one wing and Gabriel Landeskog locked in on the other (for the most part) as the top line and b) a mix of Stastny with Milan Hejduk, Matt Duchene, and David Jones.
Looking at the bottom of that list, you'll see a 4th line that sees 4th line minutes fairly consistently, all anchored by ANOTHER PK specialist in McClement. While the opinion-istas were clamouring for TJ Galiardi to get a shot in the top 6 a while back, that shouting has died down to a murmer, likely coming only from TJ's mom.
What about for the month of November?
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Largely the same with a couple of tweeks: Stastny and Jones are seeing fewer shifts at even strength, while Matt Duchene is seeing more. Both Duchene and Stastny have seen an uptick in PP time this month. The venerable Galiardi has seen his TOI remain the same, even with guys like Kevin Porter, Brandon Yip, and Joakim Lindstrom moving in and out of the lineup in the past few weeks.
So what conclusions could be drawn? Taken as a whole, if you subscribe to the theory that Winnik is a 3rd-line PK specialist who's holding back the production of his line, you're both right and wrong. He may be holding back his linemates a tad, but he hasn't been transplanted from a checking line to a scoring line. His whole line is being used as a scoring line. The philosophical discussion should be is O'Reilly's line a scoring line? Sacco seems to think it is.
The real odd-man out here is Jones who should be seeing top 6 minutes, but can't displace Landeskog, Hejduk, or Winnik from those roles. And with Matt Duchene playing both center and wing, it just confuses the matter even more. One issue I have with Jones' treatment is that at the quarter-point of the season the team is in mediocrity mode. That usually spells disaster for this team due to their late-season flounderings. If they keep to the trend of the last couple of years, Jones' (and Stastny's) trade value will be severely curtailed due to Sacco's utilization of them. I'm not saying they should be showcased, but I don't want to hear the bitching when Greg Sherman takes 50 cents on the dollar for one or the both of them at the deadline.
At the end of the day, I think I have crystallized an opinion on this TOI phenomenon: I disagree with Sacco's utilization of his forwards. I love Winnik for what he brings to the team, but what he brings isn't stuff that usually shows up on the scoresheet unless it's the zero the opposition has for PP goals. To that end, I think Sacco needs to start putting his eggs in fewer baskets. Working on the assumption that Ryan O'Reilly is going to be an offense contributor and not a checking-line center means that Stastny, Duchene, O`Reilly, Jones, Hejduk, and Landeskog need to be seeing the bulk of the minutes until this team starts scoring goals. I think a line of Duchene, O'Reilly, and Landeskog should get a tryout, but only if Stastny is anchoring the other scoring line with Hejduk and Jones on his wings.
I don't want to punish Winnik, but unless he turns into a 25-30 goal-scorer in the next couple of weeks, then he isn't being utilized to the betterment of the team. Also, replacing Duchene on wing and letting him play center means you're wasting one of your centers in a third line role that Colorado doesn't have the winger depth to complement. Saddling somebody with Brandon Yip, Porter, etc. and complaining about their production when they see less ice with worse teammates isn't fair.
The next question from the peanut gallery should be how does Sacco's utilization of the forwards compare to how other coaches in similar situations handle their lines?
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Weren’t there some people defending Winnick’s ATOI because he gets PK minutes? That already weak argument is completely blown out of the water now.
There are others saying that the Winnicks of the team aren’t what is wrong because they are less of a factor, its the Stastny and Duchene guys that matter. ATOI stats disagree.
"I’m predicting 50pts in the NHL for Hensick next season. Anyone want to put $20 on it?" - DetAvs, Jun 18, 2010 3:45 AM EDT
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Nov 30, 2011 12:21 PM MST reply actions
I did say that, but I had only looked at a couple specific games (which, fo those games, was true). That said, I cede the point, Winnik is getting too much ES ice time (or more specifically, Stats, Duchene, & Hejduk not enough)
Maybe
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Nov 30, 2011 1:24 PM MST up reply actions
I did look at it and his PK time pretty much = or is about the other forwards PP time.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 2:20 PM MST up reply actions
Which is fairly common for your PK/Defensive specialists.
"I’m predicting 50pts in the NHL for Hensick next season. Anyone want to put $20 on it?" - DetAvs, Jun 18, 2010 3:45 AM EDT
by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Nov 30, 2011 2:36 PM MST up reply actions
So how is the Winnik vs. Jones thing what is wrong with the team? Your best players have to be your best players, and Stastny, Duchene, and Hejduk haven’t been.
There is an assumption here that Winnik has hurt his line because he’s not a good offensive player. I’m not so sure that line is generating all these great chances but Winnik is blowing them. I know it’s easy to say that Winnik’s lousy at offense, but he’s playing with a rookie who isn’t expected to be a big scorer right away and a 20-year-old center who’s just starting to find his NHL offense. It’s not like Winnik is dragging down the French Connection or something.
Jones and Winnik are getting about the same amount of ice time when you look at ES + PP, which are the times when teams are most likely to score.
What about some other factors, such as Jones’s fitness/health? To me, he’s looked lumbering at times. Also, I’m guessing Sacco has liked Winnik’s overall performance better than Jones’s, which is why Winnik hasn’t even been temporarily benched while Jones has been. I think Sacco trusts that line – as a unit – to open games and close them. I can understand his reluctance to split them up. To him, that’s probably been the one line that hasn’t been a headache. It’s pretty logical that he tried Lindstrom, Kobasew, and Duchene at wing before breaking them up.
When was the last time that line produced a goal?
At exactly what point do you start to realize that life without knowledge is death in disguise?
So is the passer not passing, the finisher not finishing, or the grinder not grinding the reason for lack of scoring?
Landy’s shot% makes it look like he couldn’t hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle. ROR has plenty of assists, but with other lines/situations, so he’s probably not the root cause. It could be the way the coach plays them. If you start out in the D zone all the time, you aren’t going to get a myriad of chances.
Sacco, Winnik or #92? Who is dragging the line down?
"He who fucks nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
before tonight in the last 11 games winnik has taken 31 shots in the last 11 games, almost 3 a game and come up with nothing
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 10:10 PM MST up reply actions
The larger point is that Sacco is rolling Radar’s line like it’s a scoring line, which it hasn’t been lately. He rolls that line to the detriment of SoS and Jones’ ice time. I understand his hard-on for O’Reilly’s line as they drive the play and push the puck, the right direction as well as being one of the better d-zone units. However, they aren’t putting points on the board. He needs to figure out why that is when they do everything else right and fix it. In my opinion changing one member of that line (which will in turn allow you to load up the OTHER scoring line) will result in more biscuits in the basket.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
Damn good read. I agree an o’reilly centered scoring line with duchene and landy would be interesting especially since stats duke and jones have shown chemistry in the past. This is where they need to maybe think about shaking up the bottom 6 as well. Maybe send some guys (yip) down and give some guys from LE some looks. I mean the team isn’t in the basement yet so you don’t want to do something that could end up being really detrimental but something, anything being done would be nice.
by Markussh on Nov 30, 2011 12:23 PM MST via iPhone app reply actions
Mike Chambers posted lines for tonight, and they are pretty much exactly what you asked for.
Duchene/Stastny/Jones
Landeskog/O’Reilly/Hejduk
Winnik/McClement/Kobasew
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
These top 2 lines make sense. A line of Duchene-O’Reilly-Landeskog would have no right wing – at least no one with RW experience as a pro.
The blogist formerly known as Paul's Coffey
by Brett Shumway on Nov 30, 2011 12:29 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, I really like this combo.
That third line is all hustle and effort.
Of course, it leaves a 4th line of Porter, Yip, Galiardi, McLeod spare parts — but as long as they get limited minutes, I’m really cool with it.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
At least we know that nobody will be Lindstroming around doing nothing.
We see a wonderful sun-soaked city nestled at the foot of the Rocky Mountains. Enos sees nickels and dimes.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 30, 2011 1:08 PM MST up reply actions
Have you purchased your #17 blueberry yet?
We see a wonderful sun-soaked city nestled at the foot of the Rocky Mountains. Enos sees nickels and dimes.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 30, 2011 1:56 PM MST up reply actions
I was going to buy a EJ6, but I think a Kobawesome sounds better.
on a side note: it would be hilarious to show up to a game wearing a Kobasew jersey
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 2:07 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I floated around the register at Altitude Athletics for two whole periods and no one passed me the jersey. It accidently got close once but I wiffed on it.
I'll keep this brief.
I fell down twice trying to get a Tucker then I just kind of gave up and punched the guy next to me.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 3:01 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I got paid to get an Arnason, but I didn’t care enough to show up to get it.
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck" -Obi Wan Kenobi
I don't understand the purpose of the line, "I don't need to drink
to have fun." Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and
sticks when they've invented the lighter?
by TheRed on Nov 30, 2011 3:04 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
See I think an Arnason jersey at this point would be a good status symbol…he has his “cult” following.
Aebischer. Nope. Salo? Ha! Sauve? Nah. Theodore. Meh. Kolesnik? Hey bud, nice shootout against the Devils, but no. Budaj? You kidding? Anderson, close, but no cigar. Elliott? GET THE TANK!!! Varlamov and Giguere? To the playoffs...AND BEYOND!!
I made a big deal out of getting my Porter, tried on like three, asked everyone if they liked it, had them wrap it up, then realized I didn’t bring any money to close the deal.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 3:06 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I hope you spent your pay at the titty bar. It’s only fitting.
2011-2012 Lokomotiv Yaroslavl: Vyechnaya Pamyat!
2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: Chances are rapidly diminishing that this will not suck.
Tripled it at the poker table.
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck" -Obi Wan Kenobi
I don't understand the purpose of the line, "I don't need to drink
to have fun." Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and
sticks when they've invented the lighter?
touche’
2011-2012 Lokomotiv Yaroslavl: Vyechnaya Pamyat!
2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: Chances are rapidly diminishing that this will not suck.
I wanted a Ryan Smyth but the attendant said I had to use it as a shower curtain.
4th biggest pessimist of MHH.
"There's always next season." -- Jimmy Howard on not winning the Calder Trophy.
I considered that, but I favored the past history between Duke, Jones and SoS a little more. Plus, I think both Duchene or Landeskog have the “hockey smarts” to play either wing.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
That 3rd line is Kobasubafantastic!
We see a wonderful sun-soaked city nestled at the foot of the Rocky Mountains. Enos sees nickels and dimes.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 30, 2011 1:07 PM MST up reply actions
Now play the shit out of that top 6… give them 20 mins apiece… 14 mins for L3 and toss out 6 mins apiece to 4th liners.
by Mapletreemarty on Nov 30, 2011 1:19 PM MST up reply actions
So
now that we all finally get what we wanted (and I definitely include myself in this) they will start scoring goals, right?
Maybe
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Nov 30, 2011 1:25 PM MST up reply actions
I sure fucking hope so.
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck" -Obi Wan Kenobi
I don't understand the purpose of the line, "I don't need to drink
to have fun." Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and
sticks when they've invented the lighter?
by TheRed on Nov 30, 2011 1:26 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Or at least 12 chances a game…..
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck" -Obi Wan Kenobi
I don't understand the purpose of the line, "I don't need to drink
to have fun." Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and
sticks when they've invented the lighter?
by TheRed on Nov 30, 2011 1:26 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
but good luck with that. (In my research I haven’t seen one game where a team would have 12 of your defined chances)
Maybe
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Nov 30, 2011 1:36 PM MST up reply actions
ps
(That research includes the 6-0 drubbing Florida Put on Dallas a few weeks ago)
Maybe
Jibblescribbits: C'mon over and waste some time
by Jibblescribbits on Nov 30, 2011 1:39 PM MST up reply actions
yeah, I’m thinking that may be just a skosh high. I’d still like to see more than 4.
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck" -Obi Wan Kenobi
I don't understand the purpose of the line, "I don't need to drink
to have fun." Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and
sticks when they've invented the lighter?
I will enjoy these lines...
For the whole 10 mins they stay together
"Put stick on ice, put puck in net"
by HeyPeterman on Nov 30, 2011 2:09 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
But will these lines last as long as Duchene did at LW last time? Which was all of about one game.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 2:23 PM MST up reply actions
How about trade a defensman or 2 for a decent forward? If the Avs are bringing up Elliot in favor of Hunwick (which I think we all happily agree with), why not trim the fat and move a defensman or two and try to land a top 6 winger?
The blogist formerly known as Paul's Coffey
I thought it first! I am the originator of all original thought! I am Datsyuk!!!!!!
The blogist formerly known as Paul's Coffey
by Brett Shumway on Nov 30, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
Good show Mike.
Here, you’ve earned it.

2011-2012 Lokomotiv Yaroslavl: Vyechnaya Pamyat!
2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: Chances are rapidly diminishing that this will not suck.
by Hopfenkopf on Nov 30, 2011 12:44 PM MST reply actions 5 recs
I just got done reading about the gloom and doom over in Anaheim.
4th biggest pessimist of MHH.
"There's always next season." -- Jimmy Howard on not winning the Calder Trophy.
Oops, early post. I was going to comment on how they are struggling despite having Perry, Ryan, Getzlaf and Selanne.
It’s amazing how many different ways hockey teams can struggle.
4th biggest pessimist of MHH.
"There's always next season." -- Jimmy Howard on not winning the Calder Trophy.
would you mind paraphrasing it for us lazy bastards that only like to listen to the miscreants around here?
Thanks, Joe... Thanks, Peter.... Thanks, Adam....
Mike,
I’m still looking more into the numbers, too. I’m planning on writing a two-part article looking at the TOI after the last 10 (or, 11, if I include the Devils game) that should be up within the next three days*.
*Compiling and sorting data’s a bitch.
"Noooo!!!" - Referee, Oilers @ Avs, 26.11.2011
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins. Maybe.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, for everything but mathematics. Blood and Thunder Record: 9-11-1 (Total Record: 10-14-1)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 30, 2011 2:05 PM MST reply actions
BTW Mike, we’re friends on facebook. I think you know now that I’m an ‘it’. Where did you find the monthly breakdown? I could only find year to date.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 2:24 PM MST reply actions
I had to build the November data by hand from the TOI reports for each game. That’s why I filtered it to the “regulars” that have seen 20+ games. Also, excel hates the hh:mm:ss formatting.
If we don't get our sauce, we ain't watching the game!
Ah, that’s exactly what I didn’t want to do, but I suspected it would be like this.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 4:16 PM MST up reply actions
Sandie called.
She says there’s no room for anybody else.
2011-2012 Lokomotiv Yaroslavl: Vyechnaya Pamyat!
2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: Chances are rapidly diminishing that this will not suck.
by Hopfenkopf on Nov 30, 2011 3:08 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
So, AUD is a he/she? Tough break, kid.
Whiskey tends to make me high, and sad songs make me cry. Pretty women break my heart almost every night. I run on beans and nicotine; I'm a real, live buckaroo. And my heart's not pure, my boots ain't clean, and I never tell the truth.
Child please, you’re just as bad as Mike. i just sent you a fb request. we follow each other on twitter.
Spoon!!!!!!!!
by An Unmitigated Disaster on Nov 30, 2011 10:13 PM MST up reply actions

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