...And Sometimes Other Johnsons Don't Quite Measure Up
By now, you've probably had a chance to read Andi's excellent look at Avalanche defenseman Erik Johnson and the way the numbers at his age stack up to those of some Norris-level defensemen. Andi points out that Johnson is still very young and that his numbers compare favorably to the numbers of the last seven Norris winners at his age (23). And clearly, there shouldn't be any expectations for EJ to be Norris caliber right now. Those seven Norris winners Andi mentioned? Here's the season they won their first Norris: Lidstrom, 10th. Chara, 11th. Niedermayer, 12th. Keith, 5th. MacInnis, 15th. Blake, 9th.
But, I would also like to humbly point out that moderate success at a young age doesn't automatically mean one needs to start making room on the mantle for hardware. First, let's look at Andi's chart again without all that girly formatting because I don't want you people to start expecting frills like that (also, because I'm lazy)
| Player | Exp. | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG | +/- | PIM | S% | TOI |
| Nicklas Lidstrom | 2 | 164 | 18 | 83 | 101 | 0.616 | 43 | 50 | 5.56% | N/A |
| Duncan Keith | 1 | 81 | 9 | 12 | 21 | 0.260 | -11 | 79 | 6.70% | 23:26 |
| Zdeno Chara | 3 | 149 | 4 | 16 | 20 | 0.134 | -34 | 190 | 3.54% | 20:52 |
| Scott Niedermayer | 4 | 292 | 33 | 106 | 139 | 0.476 | 67 | 155 | 6.69% | N/A |
| Chris Pronger | 4 | 281 | 28 | 76 | 104 | 0.370 | -18 | 420 | 5.06% | N/A |
| Al MacInnis | 5 | 211 | 37 | 146 | 183 | 0.867 | 45 | 202 | 5.53% | N/A |
| Rob Blake | 3 | 136 | 19 | 47 | 66 | 0.485 | -2 | 231 | 6.69% | N/A |
| Average of Norris Winners | 3 | 188 | 21 | 69 | 91 | 0.458 | -16 | 190 | 5.67% | - |
| Erik Johnson | 3 | 225 | 23 | 78 | 101 | 0.449 | -21 | 163 | 5.08% | 20:49 |
| Shea Weber | 3 | 161 | 25 | 45 | 70 | 0.435 | 15 | 151 | 7.14% | 18:38 |
| Drew Doughty (Age 21) | 3 | 239 | 33 | 93 | 126 | 0.527 | 16 | 178 | 8.11% | 0:49 |
My first thought when reading that was "damn, Johnson really measures up well to some big names". My second thought was "hmmm, but I wonder if I could find players with similar numbers at age 22 that didn't quite turn into Norris winners". And I could.
| Player | Exp. | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG | +/- | PIM | S% | TOI |
| Martin Skoula | 3 | 244 | 21 | 51 | 72 | 0.295 | 10 | 100 | 7.60% | 20:24 |
| Derek Morris | 4 | 282 | 30 | 99 | 129 | 0.457 | -8 | 297 | 4.96% | 23:48 |
| Marc-Edouard Vlasic | 3 | 245 | 11 | 65 | 76 | 0.310 | 16 | 84 | 4.55% | 22:34 |
| Andrej Meszaros | 3 | 246 | 26 | 84 | 110 | 0.447 | 24 | 213 | 5.86% | 20:18 |
| Tomas Kaberle | 3 | 221 | 17 | 90 | 107 | 0.484 | 34 | 60 | 6.83% | 21:26 |
| Oleg Tverdovsky | 3 | 200 | 20 | 77 | 97 | 0.485 | -18 | 85 | 6.92% | |
| Kyle McLaren | 5 | 321 | 29 | 70 | 99 | 0.308 | 17 | 298 | 6.02% |
There some good names on the list (and a couple who could probably help the Avalanche out NOW), but no Norris Trophies. In fact, those 7 players have combined for 5 All-Star appearances - 4 by Kaberle and 1 by Tverdovsky. Not bad. Not elite either.
There's another thing that troubles me about Andi's list of Norris winners. When Nick Lidstrom was 23, he had guys like Paul Coffey, Steve Chiasson and Vladimir Konstantinov on the blueline with him. Chris Pronger at 23 had Al MacInnis and Steve Duchesne. Blake had Coffey too, along with veteran Charlie Huddy. Scott Niedermayer had Scott Stevens and Ken Daneyko. Al MacInnis had Gary Suter and Brian Engblom's mullet. The point is, a lot of these guys were playing with Norris winners (Coffey, MacInnis), Norris candidates (Stevens), steady veterans (Chiasson, Huddy and Daneyko) and guys who could move the puck (Coffey, Duchesne, Suter). In other words, most of them had help. The Avalanche this year has a good group of blueliners, but it would be tough to say that EJ has help of the same pedigree that many of the others had.
We don't know today what kind of career Erik Johnson is going to have. He isn't playing like a Norris candidate right now, but no one should expect him to. He clearly has the talent to get to that level someday, but that "someday" would realistically be years away. Or, it could never happen. He could be another Derek Morris; a good player who is approaching his 1,000th NHL game but who, after a lot of early promise, had just 1 40-point season in the NHL (ironically, for the Avs). Andi asked us to have patience, as we are still looking at the really early stages of his career trajectory. I agree 100%. I'd add, though, that we may just wake up some day and find out that our Johnson didn't quite measure up like we thought it would.
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Agree with both you and Andi.
Patience is the key, but I like EJ’s game. While I understand why you might have a tepid approach toward viewing Norris type star play from him, I see how his game translates to an upside for him. He has good to great puck handling ability. Right now, it’s too loose, and he makes mental errors, like leaving the puck behind, and he isn’t always calm, but I’m optimistic his game will mature as the team’s does. He’s big, but doesn’t use his body as well as he might, but that, again can improve. Much of what holds him back is the huge responsibility of being the no. 1 guy. You are very right in mentioning the mentors so many of the Norris winners had. I look at the lower list with Morris and Skoula and think when they had their decent years with the Avs, they were surrounded by the Blakes, Bourques, and Footes, so they did not have to brunt the force of being the guy on D. Plus, they had a slew of forwards, like Forsberg, Sakic, Duk, and Tangs, who could possess the puck down low, which makes it a whole lot easier to play, than the sometimes scrambly pucks that pop off wayward forwards sticks of the present day Avs. I think EJ is far away a better player than either Skoula or Morris, based on his overall skill level and just watching him play. EJ feels the responsibility, all the time. He does try to do too much, at times, to prove he is that overall no. 1 pick, but I like the fact he does hold himself accountable as the no. 1 guy and I think he does it pretty well. All things considered, I don’t disagree that he could end up not being a consistent, great defenseman, but I like his chances. I think he’s got special qualities, and they’ll show up. I do wish Sacco would quit playing him with Hejda. Those two can play some brutal hockey, and, at times, look like siamese twins removed, in a bad way.
...holy freaking f*ck, snakes!
by 7sky on Nov 5, 2011 8:24 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I too wish EJ had some help. Hedja, even though he’s 33, has only been in the NHL for 5 seasons, the same as O’Brien and Quincey. We have zero blueline vets – EJ’s responsible for carrying this team pretty much by himself. It’s kind of unfair, really: the forwards have Duke, the goalies have Giggy, and the defensemen have no one. But we do have Lefebvre. It would be better if there was a vet on the ice helping EJ out, but having a Stanley Cup-winning defensemen talking to him in practice is the next best thing. And I think the Avs have kept Adam Foote nearby – hopefully he can help too.
I still like EJ’s chances of becoming a reliable #1 guy even if he isn’t Norris caliber. And honestly, I think that he still has enough upside reach Norris level. Like I said in my article, he’s put up really, really good numbers despite playing on pretty crappy teams. If EJ was on the Kings roster instead of Doughty, I think their numbers would be very different. EJ is still a very, very good young defenseman who I have high hopes for. Sylvain Lebebvre’s just got his work cut out for him.
Just a Colorado girl in Montana who <3s the Avs.
Varly: you're awesome. We love you. Please don't break.
I also suppose another name that should be thrown into the mix is another 1st Overall Defenseman, Ed Jovanovski. His numbers were no where near as good as EJ’s are at 23, but he still managed to be a 5-time All-Star later in his career.
Just a Colorado girl in Montana who <3s the Avs.
Varly: you're awesome. We love you. Please don't break.
Funny that Skoula is on this list. I was cleaning out my childhood room recently, and found a sports section from the day after the Avs won their second cup. There was a delightful article about how the Avs would be relying on their great young defenseman Skoula to keep up his strong play.
Yeah, that worked out REALLY well for us.
Forever grateful that Joe Sakic isn't a raging dick hole like Brett Favre.
I traded him away in NHL 2002 because I got Pronger (and don't want Skoula).
Skoula ends up developing into an elite player, and Pronger never improves from his original rating. FML.
OWL LINE!!! HOOO!!!! HOOOO!!!!
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, now in colour. Blood and Thunder Record: 6-4-0 (Total Record: 7-7-0)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2011 11:56 PM MDT up reply actions
For the +/- junkies...
Hejda was +23 with the BJs. That’s nice. But he was +43 in his first two years. Okay, now the math junkies calculate what he was in his last two years.
+23 doesn’t look as nice. But I still like Hejda. He’s not flashy, but when he’s on, he does a great job of just eliminating the play. It’s thankless work most people don’t notice or care about, and what we need more of.
OWL LINE!!! HOOO!!!! HOOOO!!!!
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, now in colour. Blood and Thunder Record: 6-4-0 (Total Record: 7-7-0)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 6, 2011 12:04 AM MDT reply actions
Also:
Gm…..TIO
8……..23:04
9……..19:49
10……19:41
11……18:40
12……18:13
13……17:44
Since the second game against the Hawks, his ice time has steadily declined.
OWL LINE!!! HOOO!!!! HOOOO!!!!
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, now in colour. Blood and Thunder Record: 6-4-0 (Total Record: 7-7-0)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 6, 2011 12:12 AM MDT up reply actions
I don’t like this… We’ll see
It's all about the O'
by SteveHouse on Nov 6, 2011 1:01 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I wouldn’t read too much into his TOI ‘drop’ for two reasons.
1. Sacco is really balancing the TOI across all 6 defenseman with TOI’s of 17.46, 16.99, 16.77, 16.55, 15.74 and 14.73.
2. Hejda still averages the highest TOI on the team at 5-on-5 (17.46) and 4-on-5 (2:36).
Hey Lidstrom was a minus last year and still won the Norris..
I love it
2 Wing fans disagreeing about a potential deal for Shea Weber in the comments section of a post about the Avalanche.
Winging It In Motown
by Amerinadian on Sep 12, 2011 9:51 AM PDT up reply 1 recs
I’ve said it before, but I think EJ needs a mentor on the ice with him. You could call that “help”, but having a vet on the ice to help get EJ some confidence in his passing, etc. would be huge. A player, especially a defensemen I’d speculate, can progress a hell of a lot faster and even past the point he would’ve otherwise, with “help” like that.
Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kv
Speaking of D-men, be sure to check out the Wilson articles on Denver Post. ’Bout time somebody wrote an article on the fella
Go Avaranche!
It’s a great read, for sure. We got Elliot and Wilson, Calgary got Leoprone? Yeaaah…. that trade’s looking pretty good if you ask me.
Forever grateful that Joe Sakic isn't a raging dick hole like Brett Favre.
by Rather Dashing on Nov 6, 2011 9:17 AM MST up reply actions

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