The Chopping Block: These Players Need To Go

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 8:23 AM MST in News Comment 60 comments

Last night's appalling loss to the Red Wings---the fourth in the row for the team---revealed, for all to see, that the Colorado Avalanche needs a serious overhaul like yesterday.

First of all, Coach Joel Quenneville and his assistants Tony Granato and Jacques Cloutier should be fired today. Gone, all of them.

Goalie coach Jeff Hackett gets to stay, because his work with Jose Theodore has transformed the former has-been to a force between the pipes. Whatever Hackett has done has worked very well, and he should be commended. In fact, his success with both Theodore and Budaj is all the more amazing considering how far Q has gone to ruin both of them.

Now, as for the players, the following should be traded, cut, sent to the minors or swapped for a right-handed pitcher from the Yomiuri Giants. Immediately.

	Tyler Arnason He's useless in the faceoff circle, he's useless on defense and he only scores in spurts every ten games. He's outlasted his welcome, and has no place on this team.
	John-Michael Liles Two seasons ago he was the second coming of Sergei Zubov. Now he's crap. No goals in more than 40 games, no presence in his own zone, no spark or effort. Just a pretty face. Goodbye.
	Andrew Brunette Old, slow, and last season's 80+ point showing was a fluke. He's useless without Joe Sakic or Paul Stastny.
	Kenneth Scott Hannan For a guy billed as a tough stay-at-home defenseman, he plays like he's got Patrick Kane's tiny frame and half the courage. The Avs made a mistake. Send him back to San Jose.
	Milan Hejduk The Duke is just a shadow of his former self, and it's clear that he'll never score 50 goals, let alone 40, in a season ever again. His talents are waning and goalies don't fear him anymore.
	Karlis Skrastins I'm not going to waste time even explaining this.

I could name some others, but most of them are either young, hurt or minor offenders. And let me be clear that I like most of the players above, and I'm sure they're all nice people, but they don't belong on the Colorado Avalanche and they should seek success with other teams.

Look, I'm a Cubs fan (even if a somewhat recent convert), so I know frustration. But the only hockey team that should be like the Cubs are the Toronto Maple Leafs, not the Colorado Avalanche. I'm afraid that if the status quo is maintained, we could be seeing many more years of mediocrity and failure---and golf in April instead of gritty playoff heroics.

It's time to clean house.

Francois Giguere, don't make me fly to Denver to pay you a visit. Don't make me do it.

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Comments

the duke? hannan?

most of those im not arguing with, but Hejduk especially doesn't quite deserve to be thrown away just yet. Sure, he's struggling, but he's been paired with Bruno and Hlinka for the last 20 games. Hejduk is a complimentary player -- he's just had no one to compliment lately. The Hejduk / Stastny / Smyth line was carrying the team just a couple months ago, remember? At any rate, he's a total bargain at his low salary anyways.

and Hannan hasn't been that bad. worth 4.5 million? not really. but not too bad, and he's had strong effort all year, more than you can say about most Avs defensemen. Put him with a Avs team that isn't constantly pinned in their own end (or one that allows their defensemen to hit) and I think you'd be surprised at how quickly his numbers would improve.

P.S. Hejduk has a NTC. He's not going anywhere.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 9:17 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Duke

NTCs can be worked around. They're not always the final word.

And I don't honestly think that Hejduk is going anywhere, even though I'd like to see him gone for the good of the team.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 9:20 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

what exactly

does the team gain by dumping Hejduk? Even if he's not going to score 40 or 50 goals again, isn't 25-35 and 65-75 points for 3.5 million a great deal?

And that's not even mentioning how solid he is defensively! Name a better defensive winger on this team!

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 9:57 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: what exactly

Well, let's be honest. Hejduk is on pace to score around 50 points this season, not 65-75.

But you're right, he's not a terrible player by any means. I'm not saying he's terrible. I'm saying that he's lost his spark and he's not contributing much to the team offensively, which is his job. He's not the killer goal scorer he once was, and that's what this team needs again.

And the Avalanche need a major shakeup, a change to the system, an influx of new blood. Hejduk is old news.

I personally love Milan Hejduk and he's always been one of my favorite players to ever wear an Avalanche jersey, but his time in Colorado should be over, in my opinion.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 10:08 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm not buying it

note: im normalizing to 82 game paces. that removes injuries from the equation to some extent.

atm, Hejduk is on pace for 29.81 goals, and 58.14 points. certainly not his best year, but not too far off his usual pace. 30 goals in a year can hardly be called a bad year.

but, if you remove the last month and a half (when Smyth went down and that awesome line got broken up) and check his pace then, he was on pace for ~36 goals and ~72 points. I think this proves my point that Hejduk is a complimentary player -- he's gotta have the right linemates, and when he does he's an awesome top liner.

I know what you're saying -- he's not scoring when we need him the most -- but DD said it well: you have to take the good with the bad with him. He is what he is, a complimentary player that doesn't create his own offense that well. for 4 million a year, a 35 goal scorer is an incredible deal. add to that his D abilities, and he's a HANG ONTO THIS PLAYER type of guy.

who would you rather have on Stastny's wing? Hossa @ 7.5 million? A total unknown in Chris Stewart? A defensive and playmaking liability in Marek Svatos? Really, I'd like to know.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 10:40 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: i'm not buying it

The Duke is a Synergy player (1+1=3).

Sakic's MVP year? Duke on the Wing
Forsberg's MVP year? Duke in the Wing
Staz's best play? Duke on the Wing

Duke makes all these players better just as they make him better. Without a center Duke can only score so much and he becomes a defensive forward - something he is good at but we would rather have him scoring too.

To summarize - Getting rid of the Hejduk makes this team better HOW??

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 1:33 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I'm not buying it

But what if you don't have anyone for him to synergize with? Hejduk is only amazing if paired with amazing players.

Sakic. Forsberg. Stastny. What about when he's paired with Hlinka, Hensick or Arnason? Nothing happens.

I know Sakic and Stastny are coming back (maybe, some day, we hope), but how long will it take for Hejduk to get used to playing with them again? And will Q even pair him with them at all? You never know.

Hejduk relies too much on his teammates to be effective offensively. He does not stand alone.

I wish I had a perfect idea for a Hejduk trade, but I don't. At any rate, getting rid of Hejduk could produce the shake up the team obviously needs. Would it hurt? Sure. But so did trading Chris Drury and Alex Tanguay, but the Avs did it anyway. Hell, they weren't all that bad after getting rid of Drury, and he could score goals on his own.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 1:43 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

seriously...

I just can't think of many more short-sighted panic button reactions for this team. If we trade him for another player making 3.5 we have gained nothing and will lose something once we have a good center with him. No short or long term gain can come from this.

Hejduk has been consistantly playing hard and sprinkling some goals (or having them called back ahem Detroit) on a this team. I really cannot even understand why he should go just to 'shake' this team up. Will shaking things up in that way even do anything? Possible but it seems unlikely.

Skill players that can backcheck, PK, and snipe among many other things are to damn valuable to throw away in the name of a shakeup. 29 other teams would like to have Hejduk on their roster, why shouldn't we.

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 2:03 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: seriously

29 other teams would like to have Hejduk on their roster...

Which means they'd trade somebody good for him. Or some high draft picks.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 2:10 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

it'd have to be someone REALLY good

Kaberle for Hejduk is the only trade I can think of that might make sense for both teams. an exchange of 2 underpaid top-flight players. The Leafs can start their rebuilding a little bit faster without having a vet under contract until like 2012, and the Avs get their top defenseman they so desperately need.

But draft picks? even first rounders are a total crap shoot. Wolski and Stewart are the only 2 I can even think of in our organization still, all the others were severe busts. think of Nederost, and um...Johansson? Wasn't Parker a CO first rounder? I think he's still a bust even if he's still here.

A proper team has a balance of passer/playmakers (we seem to be ok here, with Stastny and Hensick), "stand alone" puck-possession types (which the Avs have a severe shortage of, for sure), and finishers that don't really need the puck like Hejduk or Svatos. Sure, we don't have that balance now, but that doesn't mean we should dump the parts we DO have (at great cap-value, no less) for a chance at other pieces!

Trading Hejduk for anything but the very best of deals is a panic button type reaction, as lowayne says.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 2:33 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: It'd have to be...

What you say makes sense, but that doesn't mean I'm going to listen to you. I'm in full panic mode.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 2:40 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Open

I would be open to that Kaberle trade for sure.

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 2:41 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open

Seconded. Except that BOTH Kaberle and Hejduk have no trade clauses. Of course, those can be waived, but it definitely complicates matters.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 2:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

sad

I would feel sorry for Hejduk going to Toronto though. No player is good enough for satisfying those wolves.

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 2:49 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: it'd have to be someone REALLY good

The Draft is not a crap shoot if you know what you're doing.

Johansson was drafted as a tradeable asset, and he was traded with Battaglia for Konowalchuk. This current Avs team would look a lot different if Kono hadn't Jiri Fischered his way out of the league.

Nedorost didn't pan out because he never wanted to play in North America.

Parker wasn't a bust. He was drafted to be a goon and that's what he is. It wasn't the best use of a first round pick, but then again, the strategy behind acquiring the pick was fucking brilliant. Avs just got unlucky in that the three teams whose 1sts they acquired went from being the three bottom teams in the league to various degrees of respectable. Nothing they could do about that.

That's not to say that Hejduk should be traded for picks. He has a NTC anyway.

But if those other douches on the list can be moved for picks, I'd definitely do that. You'd be stupid not to.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 2:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

I have to go with the good doctor here. Hejduk has been awful lately...but that's how the cookie crumbles with him. You have to take the bad with the good with him.

And I really like the play of Hannan of late. I don't want to see him go anywhere. Not a mistake in my book.

by David Driscoll-Carignan on Feb 19, 2008 9:33 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

Liking the play of late is not worth $4.5 million a year.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 9:37 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure

I don't think a player cleansing is in order. coaching change is in order however.

Most of Bruno and Hejduk's woes have been a direct result of Q coaching not to lose instead of going for goals. You've done a good job documenting how he doesn't send in forecheckers, or make any kind of effort to do something fairly important to hockey, you know score goals.

I think Bruno and Hejduk's season is reflecting that coaching philosophy (if you can call praying for a lucky bounce and expecting your goalie to be the reincarnate of Roy every single night a philosophy).

by Jibblescribbits on Feb 19, 2008 11:02 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

My take.

I agree with almost everyone on your list. I disagree with the Hejduk thing because of his low salary. He has an NTC, so that's all moot anyway.

You forgot a couple guys though.

Joe Sakic - Makes too much for what little he brings to the table these days. This lethargic play isn't going to stop until you get rid of the coach and the lethargic captain. If he were just a player, he'd be overpaid but more palatable. But as the captain, he's a detriment to the team.

Ryan Smyth - He was one of the three players I wanted out of free agency (the other two were Drury and Hannan), because I was looking forward to the Smyth we saw in the playoffs all those years. This Smyth is useless and overpaid. 86 him.

Wojtek Wolski - This kid's never going to amount to much because he doesn't have the heart and he doesn't have the offensive awareness to be anything special. He can score goals and he's a pretty good puckhandler, but he makes poor decisions in the offensive zone, will never be much of a playmaker due to his lack of ice vision, and his defense and physical play are non-existent. We should have dealt him last year. He's a poor man's Alex Tanguay.

Scott Parker - I love the guy, but there's no need for a goon in today's NHL. Some teams still think there is. Let them have him.

Brett Clark - He's fucking AWFUL. By far the worst DMan on the roster defensively. He's a poor man's Patrice Brisebois. Get him the fuck out. I don't care if he's hurt. Send him and a 2nd rounder for a 4th rounder if you have to.

Peter Budaj - He serves no purpose now that JoeTed is back. If the Avs were smart, they'd deal him and call up Bacashihua. But they aren't. They seem to have Weiman and Wall higher on the depth chart for some unknown reason.

If someone will take our garbage off our hands for any reason, Weiman, Wall and Penner should be gone as well.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 11:04 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

haha

oh man, dude, you hate like everyone. awesome.

just out of curiosity, who would you replace these players with, ideally? im curious for each case (except Parker. A team with a Cody and a Lappy doesn't need a true enforcer, agreed).

Also, I can't remember where I read this, but I saw speculation that the deal for Bacashishua is that the Blues get our 7th only if he plays a game in the NHL this year, and that's why we refuse to call him up. Makes sense to me. Betcha he'll get a good hard look next year in camp.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 11:11 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't...

...hate anyone on the team. Clark is not an NHL defenseman on a playoff team (though he could play some sort of role on a shit team), and the fact that Idiot played him in the NHL was one of the first signs that he was an idiot.

But I don't hate anyone on the team. I only like a couple of the players (Parker is one), but who I like and who I don't has absolutely nothing to do with my analysis.

As for who I would replace them with, if I wanted to suggest a bunch of potential trades, I'd go to HFBoards. There's no point in making trade propositions, and I won't waste my time doing that.

Suffice it to say, some of our players would be worth something significant on the open market. Others would be next to worthless. Trade the ones with significant value for a significant return and trade the shit players for whatever you get for them. If these shitbags don't want to work, better to pawn them off on someone else than to have them chewing up our cap room and roster space, poisioning our team with their contagious shit play.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 2:13 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

the question of...

who you'd like to replace them with is valid. I understand that you feel these players are deficient in many ways, but if you lose these ones, you have to replace them with players of similar value. it stands to reason that players of similar value will have flaws -- different ones maybe, but still flaws -- as well, right?

this isn't the old NHL where you could just buy better players if you don't like your current ones. More talented players don't just grow on trees, and even if they did, they'd all cost too much to put on the same roster!

for example, dumping Wolski. Sure, he's got issues (I love the poor man's Tanguay comment as well, so true), but he's like 21, right? he will most likely still continue to develop. Hell, Lecavalier was a 20 - 25 goal scorer until he suddenly figured it out. TB was patient with him, and it paid off.

Now, Wolski is probably not any Lecavalier, but I think he deserves a bit more time, especially with how little he costs right now. Comparing him to Tanguay is a little unfair -- Tanguay costs 5-6 million! Is there some player you'd rather have that costs next to nothing and has Wolski's potential?

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 2:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Again...

...there's no point in making trade proposals. If you want that, go mess with the idiots at HFBoards. I'm sure they could throw out all the ridiculous proposals you could ever want.

I'm saying trade these losers for players, prospects and picks. I'd prefer picks first, prospects second and players third.

We don't need replacements. I am not interested in rearranging deck chairs like you're suggesting. That's not how you improve as a team.

If we could liquidate all those losers for prospects and picks, that would be a hell of a start. Then we'd have the money to build in free agency and tons and tons of assets for player acquisitions as well.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 3:01 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

so...

you misunderstand, i'm not interested in "deck chairing" either. but I'm also against over-paying for free agents (this is by far the most likely outcome of free agency pickups -- as with Hannan and Smyth). free agents generally were rejected by another team, they're not magically without flaws. so which ones do you want?!? I want to know of these magical free agents that won't be overpaid and have less flaws than our current players.

and, you just want to trade it all for prospects and picks, like these picks and prospects will be better than what we have. You seem certain of this, so who are they? Who are these magical prospects and picks that will all pan out and save the franchise?

I'm being sarcastic -- you don't know, and I don't expect you to. No one knows. Blowing everything up and grabbing free agents and picks/propects is fraught with as much peril as being cautious and hoping our current propects grow into the roles this current team has holes in -- maybe even more so, with how easy it is to hole yourself with the cap in FA (hi there, Toronto).

Saying "zomg we need more picks and prospects!!! and build in FA!!!" is just a tired cliche stemming from a "grass is greener on the other side" effect. slow down. this team is probably closer than we think...it needs the RIGHT moves, not just lots of them.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 3:22 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, don't get me wrong...

...I know full well which players, prospects and potential draftees would be better than what we have. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to build a team, and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out which players would work the best in building that team.

There's just no point in saying "I think we should trade Milan Hejduk and a 3rd round pick in 2009 for Mats Sundin and Darcy Tucker." What exactly would that accomplish? Are the Avs reading this? Are they going to say "wow, never thought of that...I'll go throw that one out there and see if I can land Sundin and Tucker because random guy on the internet said so."

Now, if they were smart, they would listen to me. I could do FG's job a hell of a lot better than he has. Unlike FG, I have actually read the CBA cover to cover, and the whole Sakic and Blake's bonuses counting against the cap wouldn't have gotten past me like it did PL (the CBA states specifically that it would not).

But they aren't listening to any of us. And if they listened to the fans in general, I'd be pretty pissed, because fans of all teams tend to be very very stupid (case in point - people were busting a gut to get Forsberg back).

Finally, nobody is suggesting knee-jerk trades just for the sake of ridding our roster of some players and hoping new ones will work. If you think I'm doing that, then you need to actually read my posts for a change.

Brett Clark is useless. If we could get ANYTHING for him, you do that. Hannan has been okay, but he makes a LOT of money. Get what you can for him. Smyth, same thing. Liles is going to leave at the end of the year anyway. Get what you can for him. Brunette, same thing. Skrastins - see Clark. Arnason - see Clark.

It's not a matter of getting rid of these guys and hoping their replacement is better. It's a matter of getting what you can for players that are useless to us and spending their cap money elsewhere.

And since you are creaming your shorts for me to throw a name out there - Marian Hossa. Take the players above and tell the Thrash they can have any and as many of them as they want for Hossa. Then get rid of the rest of the losers and sign Hossa long-term with the money freed up.

Hossa's flaw? He's a free agent. Slightly above-average defensively. Other than that, no weaknesses. He's been working his ass off for an absolute go-nowhere shit team for years now. We need him and guys like him.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 3:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

subject

I believe the Avs appealed the Sakic and Blake bonus fiasco. It was retarted that we got stuck with the bonuses by the NHL.

Hossa makes alot of money but I would like to have him. Its easy to say what will make this team better. Doing it is NOT easy.

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 3:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

well

Of course our discussion doesn't really matter. I ask because I'm genuinely interested in what you think, since you claim to be such a hockey god, and better than FG. if you're so awesome, tell us what you would do! we can then evaluate later!

Hossa, sure. I'm down for that kind of trade with our spare parts. I don't think anyone here wouldn't do a package of Wolski + others for a long-term Hossa. Hell, FG would do that in a heartbeat, I think!

Problem is, I doubt you can promise that Hossa will sign long term, and I doubt Atl would trade a long term signed Hossa for a package centering around Wolski. If you could clear that up, lets do it! Otherwise we'd look like the NYI holding our dicks while Ryan Smyth waves goodbye after trading the farm for him.

I'd rather sign Hossa in the offseason for nothing. He seems determined to test the FA waters, so might as well take our chance getting him when it DOESN'T cost Wolski + god knows what else.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

shakes head

I never claimed to be a "hockey god," so can the hyperbolic bullshit.

I'd give up Wolski, Liles, Smyth and Hannan for Hossa in a heartbeat, even if he weren't signed long-term. And cap permitting, Atlanta would take that as well.

As for your plan to sign Hossa in the offseason for nothing, that only applies assuming that the Thrash don't deal Hossa before the season ends. Because nobody is going to give up the type of value that the Thrash are looking for without either having some sort of assurance that he would re-sign, or having a strong commitment to get a deal done before he has the chance to hit the open market.

What the Isles did last year with Smyth is not applicable. It's the freaking Isles. The owner hired his coach BEFORE his GM (you NEVER do that), then fired the GM when he and the coach didn't get along (you NEVER do that either). Then he hired his backup goalie to take over as GM because he was impressed by him in their brief conversations. To cite them as any sort of example is not valid.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 4:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

but Thomas

why would the Thrashers want Smyth and Hannan @ 11 million per year if they're not willing to pay Hossa more than 7 million a year by all media reports? why would they want a rental in Liles?

No, thats not the only way the offseason thing happens (though it does assume that he'll be a UFA). I do think Hossa will get traded (the Thrashers can't just let him walk), I just don't think he'll talk contract until the offseason. And that is far from a sure thing -- even if he doesn't wait. Ask Buffalo with Campbell, or every other team in the league with their pending UFAs!

For someone who would be "the balls" as a GM (excuse me for using a little hyperbole to extend your self-described role to "god"), you seem to not grasp trades, FA, and player value very well.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 5:57 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Laughable.

And this is exactly why I have no interest in discussing potential trades. You COMPLETELY missed my point with regards to a Hossa trade. I wasn't proposing anything, I was using an example to illustrate the idea behind moving these losers to another team and making the team better in the process.

We don't know how Atlanta would value our players. You can dance around and pretend that you know, but you don't. Last year saw a couple teams play both a seller and a buyer, and Atlanta has stated repeatedly that they intend to be a playoff team this year. So the idea that they wouldn't be interested in a rental is kind of ignorant. They aren't a bottom-dwelling rebuild team, and they would actually be pretty good trading partners with us. Given their lack of a puck-moving DMan beyond Enstrom, I would imagine they would be pretty interested in a guy like Liles for the playoff run. Liles and Wolski might be enough to get Hossa.

And I fully expect Hossa to negotiate before the end of the season with whatever team he gets traded to (or Atlanta if he's not moved). Pretty much every player begins discussions as soon as he's moved.

Regardless, if you want to discuss it more, take it to HFBoards. I'm not interested in the pointless pissing matches you are so gung-ho to get involved in.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 6:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

i see

any time anyone attempts to engage you in concrete discussions and evaluation of your assertations, it becomes a "pissing match" or you simply assert something else and refuse to discuss it. How exactly am I supposed to divine you weren't REALLY proposing that trade...even though you did, in fact, say you would like to do that trade and that Atl would accept?

taking a step back, I'd hoped to see your vaunted hockey knowledge in action and perhaps respect you a little bit in spite of your caustic posts. unfortunately, you've shown me nothing. well, I take that back. You've shown me that you're pointless to deal with. You can't have a discussion without beating your own chest, making wild, unfounded statements about hockey, and making veiled assertations about anyone that happens to disagree with you.

I usually call someone like that on the internet a troll. Now that I know what you are, you won't see me feeding you anymore, in particular on a web site I enjoy. Thomas, you'll never hear from me again. Have fun being better than FG as a GM on the internet.

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 8:14 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha

He's a poor man's Alex Tanguay.

What a great line! I think Wolski's got a lot more potential than you do, but I agree in the comparison to Tanguay. Tanguay showed some heart in 2001 but that was about it. After that he became a soulless drone that was good for around a point per game. Wolski's not contributing a point per game. Maybe Calgary will trade us Tanguay back for Wolski.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 12:50 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want....

...Tanguay back. Once was enough. Thank God we got a great return for him the first time.

Anaheim's got Edmonton's 1st this year. We should see what they want for it.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 2:15 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I don't want...

Cody McLeod seems like Brian Burke's kind of player.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 2:30 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Hannan?

Hannan may be playing better as of late (which isn't difficult considering how crappy he started out), but what took him so freaking long? Plus, his contract is an absolute killer. It's not his fault the Avs offered him that much and he took it. But he's been, at best, our 3rd-best overall defenseman this season, and that's being very charitable. He has brought absolutely nothing to the team - nothing. Isn't he supposed to be a leader? Isn't he supposed to be an intimidator? Isn't he supposed to be a shut-down defenseman? I've seen none of that, none at all.

Saw him deliver a pretty good check a few games ago...then saw it was Todd Marchant on the receiving end. Oh. Not just a mistake, but a colossal mistake. When he's not coughing up the puck and padding his minus rating, he reminds me of what Skratsins used to be here - a warm body who sometimes broke up an offensive play. A guy who was always in the lineup, who posed no offensive or physical threat whatsoever. $4.5 million for that? Absolutely not worth the price.

(And speaking of free agents, Ryan Smyth hasn't knocked my socks off, either. Shades of Selanne/Kariya.)

Not sure how you can leave Svatos off the "must keep" list, he's one forward who's shown he actually gives a crap. If you put his motor inside the Tin Man's body, then Wolski might actually be a guy I enjoy watching.

Really, though, the staff needs to go. How do you have such a crappy PP with better players than last year? Did losing Brett MacLean and Ken Klee really hurt us that much? Oh wait, those guys never played on the power play, never mind.

by Dan Winkler on Feb 19, 2008 11:29 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Hannan

Something else I was thinking last night watching Hannan generally look indifferent out there. Wasn't he supposed to be our new Adam Foote? Would Adam Foote have just stood around and watched our team get pushed all over the ice by our hated rival like Hannan basically did last night? No fricken way. Lappy, and unfortunately McLeod (who is brain dead), were the only two guys who even showed a fricken pulse last night. And I would have expected the Hannan that we supposedly signed to be out there making life difficult for Wing forwards. We are lucky if the guy throws one decent check in a game. Let alone becomes a physical presence. What happened to the guy who made life so difficult for Forsberg in a playoff series several years ago?

by Bob in Boulder on Feb 19, 2008 11:43 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Hannan

What happened to the guy who made life so difficult for Forsberg in a playoff series several years ago?

That's a great question, because he hasn't gotten any slower, or smaller, or dumber. He's still, by all accounts, the same Scott Hannan that played shut down defense so well in San Jose. Sure, he's no Chris Pronger, but he's been pretty good. Definitely a top 4 guy.

Not so much in Colorado. He has no physical presence on the ice at all, and couldn't shut down a computer, let alone a physical forecheck.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 12:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Uh

This isn't a must-keep list. It's a must-get-rid-of list. That's why Hannan is on it and Svatos is not.

I wouldn't trade Svatos for anything. He's the second coming of Milan Hejduk, just a little immature, like Hejduk used to be.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 12:45 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

You've all made some valid points

but I think the underlying cause of all of this is the coaching. Who knows, maybe if Q had an inkling of an idea on generating offense with these guys, Bruno and the Duke wouldn't look so bad. The main reason I included Hejduk on MY list is because he's still good enought to fetch something for the rebuilding. Same with Svatos, IMO. I think he's peaked and this being a contract year, his 'heart' is a tad suspect in my book.

As for Wolski, I'd put him in the same boat as the Duke and Bruno, where his luckluster play may be a direct result of the style of play imposed on him by the coaching staff. If he was cut loose a little more and given a chance to generate with some legit linemates, I think he could be a younger version of Hejduk in his prime. Unfortunately, like most of the Avs players, he's hampered by the horrible system of play that has been imposed by Q and Co.

by Mike @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 12:09 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Well

We can definitely agree that the coaches have to go. I guess Hejduk can stick around, but only under those circumstances.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 12:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

OK EVERYBODY STFU AND CALM THE F DOWN!!!

**virtual slap to everyone's face**

This season is NOT over! We CANNOT go trading all our guys away! Do you realize what will happen if we DON'T make the playoffs this season? The fans will totally abandon the team! Look, we have Stastny and Sakic coming back to the team (I hope lol), that would reunite the RPM line which was so productive earlier in the season (IF Q has enough brains to do that). Then things will start working out. It all starts with the reunification of the RPM line. And then we have Sakic, he's still a good player, he still averaged almost a point per game before going down with the injury. People say our powerplay sucks, why hasn't anyone even thought of the fact that it sucks because Sakic isn't on it!!! Sakic is like the QB of our powerplay, everything runs through him! He's great at controlling the puck and calms everyone down. When he returns (and if he's fully healthy) our powerplay will climb right back into the middle of the league (not for the season statistically, I mean the percentage for the games Sakic plays). You watch, it'll happen. But I agree with everyone on the fact that Q has to go.

And there's no way in hell we should get rid of Hejduk. Nuh uh.

by Mike the Avs Fan on Feb 19, 2008 4:07 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I'm in mild disagreement

because this team underachieved with Sakic and SoS in the lineup, IMO. Not because of either player, but because of the schizo coach behind the bench. I'm not sure thier return will accomplish much if Q is still behind the bench.

My 'panic mode' stemmed from the lack of anything resembling effort from the guys currently skating for Colorado. I think the team is listless due to the lack of coaching. Players like Richie bust ass and get sent down. Arny loses critical faceoffs and gets to stick around. Hlinka plays well with certain players, but get stuck with 3rd line and PK duties. The goalies are STILL looking over thier shoulders cuz the hook could come at any time. That's all coaching and I'm not sure a healthy Sakic/Statsny and the return of the lines that worked will be enough to get them into the playoffs. I think the mediocrity is here to stay, like a bad rash.

by Mike @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 4:22 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah the coaching is a reason

but maybe Q'll figure it out... I can dream can't I? lol

by Mike the Avs Fan on Feb 19, 2008 4:43 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they should hire Thomas

82-0.

Can you FEEL IT.

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 4:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey Joe...

...he's doing it again.

How many times are you going to let this kid get away with this?

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 4:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Thomas

I have staid quite on all of this, mainly because I think everyone's overreacting mightily.

Thomas I'm not insulting you, but if you're going to say stuff like this:

There isn't a point in continuing arguing. If you think Clark plays even so much as average defense, then you don't know the first thing about defense.

Then you can't really complain when someone comes back at you.

by Jibblescribbits on Feb 19, 2008 5:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Apples and tractors.

I said someone doesn't know anything about defense.
Someone else mocks and insults me.

Those aren't even remotely the same thing.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 6:47 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Except

Being condescending and implying that someone is an idiot IS insulting. Just because you don't come out and say "You are an idiot" doesn't mean it can't be implied.

Not only is it insulting to him, but it manages to insult anyone who thinks Clark plays average defense, which is most of the people who read this board.

by Jibblescribbits on Feb 19, 2008 6:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, that's fine.

I was "just ribbing" the idiot.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 7:04 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

MOMMMMM

HE'S USING SARCASM ON THE INTERNETS AGAINNNNN! ;)

seriously dude, you talk a big game about yourself and your knowledge. take it like a man, it's all in good fun.

FWIW, you've been my humor for the day here at work: "guys, I am way better than FG. As an example of my awesome, we should trade spare parts for Hossa and sign him long term." ...like every GM in the league hasn't been trying this. good times. :D

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 5:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey...

...it's not my set of rules. If it were me, I would be fine with hitting him in the jaw five times as hard as he hit me.

But Joe gave me shit when I hit someone back the last time. So now it's on him to keep people from attacking me. This kid keeps doing it again and again, and there's only so much I am going to (or should have to) take before I am going to start hitting back.

As for your last paragraph, it's ironic to me that you laugh at me, because the fact that you were not able to grasp a simple concept got me laughing out loud at you.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 6:49 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Thomas

I think you're reaching a bit here. This is nothing more than some mild ribbing, hardly a personal attack. I kid Mike and Drafty like this all the time.

Everybody thinks I'm batshit insane for trading Hejduk and yet I haven't taken offense to it.

by Joe @ MHH on Feb 19, 2008 5:40 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Reaching?

Joe, I will remind you that you whined to be about "veiled" attacks when you e-mailed me the first time. His attack wasn't even veiled.

But hey, if he's allowed to attack, then I guess you're not going to mind when I decide to attack the idiot myself.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 6:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

By the way...

This idiot is NOT ribbing. He's said repeatedly that he doesn't think I should be able to post here. You've had to delete his posts repeatedly because of personal attacks on me.

This is what I was talking about in our e-mail exchange. You're ENCOURAGING him to push the envelope and see how much he's allowed to attack me.

This isn't ribbing, Joe. And I will tell you right now, I am going to bite back. Ask anyone who has ever conversed with me on usenet, I can bite a hell of a lot harder than a 13 year old messageboard troll like this Lowayne idiot.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 6:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Joe, can we make

biting the official term for Thomas posts now? biting hard?

by thedoctor on Feb 19, 2008 8:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

And we'll call yours....

...."pissing."

Because that's all you know how to do.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 11:07 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

OMG

I'm actually feeling it!

well.....not really...

by Mike the Avs Fan on Feb 19, 2008 4:50 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd be...

...a better GM than coach. I don't think there's anything I could teach them that they don't already know. And while the Avs need someone with some fire, I doubt they'd be receptive to me for very long.

GM though, I would be the balls. The Drafts would be impeccable, that's for sure.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 4:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Meanwhile, here in reality...

...the season is over. Even if we make the playoffs, we're not going to do dick.

The team was better without the Three Douches than they were with them, and having Smyth in the lineup has actually killed the chemistry. Getting back the Lethargic Wonder and Stastny isn't going to help. They're going to play like they did before these three asswipes got hurt.

Honestly, if I could have Stastny back and send Smyth back to the DL, I'd be happy with that.

Not that it makes a difference, because I am not rooting for the Avs to win anymore. It's time to cut our losses and shoot up the draft board. If we're not gunning for a Cup, the smart move is to get as many ping pong balls into the hopper as we can.

The PP sucked when Sakic was here. Drop the pom-pons.

by Thomas on Feb 19, 2008 4:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Poll

Thinking about making a poll about firing Q.

Fire Q

Fire Q and partial staff

Fire Q and all game day staff

While I would prefer to lose Q, Granato, and the robot - it would leave the team at scratch. Are we willing to accept the coaching rebuilding time associated with wholesale coaching change?

Never trust the lunch lady.

by Hardshell_Taco_del_Lowayne on Feb 19, 2008 5:00 PM MST reply actions 0 recs